3rd Classes

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3rd Classes

Post by Lothar Axe on 26/8/2012, 15:42

I will reopen this thread mostly to repost most of the stuff that was discussed before. I hope I will be able to remember everything.

In the last time people were discussing how thirds should be applied and then wich changes should be made to adapt them to MouRO. Four ways appeared and many suggestions for each of the classes were made for skill changing. The ways are as follow:

Skotlex Way: Thirds will be added as another Trans class, and the skill pools of Thirds and Trans Classes will be mixed then divided between them to form new classes, wich means that a High Swordsman now can choose between becoming a Lord Knight or a Rune Knight, and not only that, Lord Knights will have more skills than they have now wich came from Rune Knights, and Rune Knights will have less skills than in Vannilla wich were given to Lord Knights.

[This way means that the actual Trans classes will be changed, and the Thirds will be added with a different and smalled skill Pool than the original, but will keep a decent class progression and will not only improve what we have now, but will add some new class endings, and needs a bit less work in terms of skill changes and suggestions]
Here's Skot Diagram:

......................................................................................................../ > Trans Class + (With some Third Class skills)
First Class -> Second Class - |Rebirth| - High First Class -> (+Second Class)|
........................................................................................................\ > Third Class + (Some Trans Class skills or not, and less Third skills)


Lothar Way: Thirds will be added as another second class in the same way as Ninjas and Gunslingers were added, and so they will count only with their own skill pool instead of receiving skills from Second classes. Some skills from second classes would be added to Thirds so they could work, as some of them are essential, and also some skills would suffer serious changes to increase their possibilities and fill up some other requirements. For example, now your High Mage can choose between becoming a Professor, a High Wizard, a Warlock or a Sorcerer. The Warlock and Sorcerer wont have neither Wizard, neither Sage skill pools, except for one or another skill.

[This way means more work, more suggestions, and bad suggestions might mean fail, but essentially tries to preserve the Trans classes as we have now, and add the Thirds just the way they are, maximizing the use of their skill pools, mazimizing the class itself, all to keep the old and the new]
Here's Loth Diagram:

.............................................................................../ > + (Second Class) Trans Class
First Class -> Second Class - |Rebirth| - High First Class -|
.............................................................................. \ > Third Class + (With one or another Second class skills)


Free Class Way: All players would be able to choose any class order progression between their own class levels, not only that the Rebirth system would be completelly removed and Second Class would be the Transclasses with Second Class skill pool directly, wich means that your Thief now can choose as Second class ANY of the avaible second classes of the game, and as Third class ANY of the avaible Third classes of the game, wich means: Thief -> Minstrel -> Rune Knight, is now a possible class progression.

[This system would need Balacing wich is pretty much impossible to be done, that if players would actually care about balance, if not, the system is all about fun and freedom, letting you customize your character a lot. Some skills might not work though]
Here`s Free Diagram:

First Class -> Any Second Class (+ Trans skills) -> Any Third Class

Vanilla Way: Thirds would be added just like in Vannilla, we would have Third Classes after Trans Classes.

[This system means that Thief, Swordsman, Mage, Acolyte, Archer and Merchant branches would receive a more powerfull class evolution whose skill pools not only repeat some skill roles from second class skill pools, but make some other skills pretty much useless, but anyway, this is the official way]
Here`s Vanilla Diagram:

First Class -> Second Class -|Rebirth|- High First Class -> Trans Class -> Third Class

Straight-to-the-top-System: This system is pretty much an Add-On and can be applied with All Ways. This system removes rebirthing, and creates a shared XP Table with all classes, making your joblvl increase and never lower after changing class. Wich means that when you`re a First Class and you get 50 jobs, you can change into a Second class, but your job stays at 50 and keeps increasing until you reach 150 job, wich is when you can change to Third or Transclass, and so on. Yes, no Rebirthing, that`s why Straight to the top, just keep lvling and getting the next classes.


As for the Skill Change Suggestions... I can't remember them...
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Vitriol on 28/8/2012, 02:08

omfg i want the freeclass method, even if it is only on a test server.
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Loki on 28/8/2012, 06:14

Can't see your posts because of your avatar Vit.

Still...I'm curious why you're still here. I thought it was 'Mission Accomplished' for you.
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Skotlex on 28/8/2012, 11:08

I resized his avatar for him since he's too lazy to do it :B

Meh, it would be easier to work on the server if i weren't in my last year of my PhD and I had to work on my thesis for the foreseeable future @_@
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by to3phu on 28/8/2012, 14:52

go skot~

It be cool if we can pick any set skill we want. Pick your class for base stats gears they can wear and then mix n match any skill from all class
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Lothar Axe on 28/8/2012, 19:12

I don't think Free Class System would be a good thing. I know it might look awesome, but you will get tired from it after testing some combinations. (And I'm not even considering how Broken in all possible ways it would be).

Sometimes Freedom make us lose interest of stuff, same for Limits. Tighten the pants and you don't enter them, loose them too much and they fall, that's the thing.
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Squishyyy on 29/8/2012, 14:31

I disagree. I've played a few limitless servers and made a few and I'm pretty sure that free class would be one of the better options with some tweaking. However, I propose ANOTHER system just because I've always wanted to see how messy things could get:

novice-> your first class-> your second class -> rebirth-> high novice -> high first-> high second-> third
(optional)
-> rebirth->do all that all over -> third+ (there are two sets of third classes you wouldn't even have to make a custom class)


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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Lothar Axe on 29/8/2012, 15:33

Isn't that too complex? I guess a straight First > Second > Third class progression would be better.
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Squishyyy on 29/8/2012, 21:28

well...this is MOU RO the same server with @diff, five slotted items etc~ I figured a little complexity was necessary.

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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Lothar Axe on 29/8/2012, 22:14

That if complexity itself is what you seek.
Honestly I think there's something else behind MouRO changes.

Anyway, the Ways posted are just to Honor the discussions that were taken on the last forums, cause I think Skotlex already decided to apply his own way.

Edit:
Well, my opinions about 3rds can be synthesized in "Lothar's Way", since It was my idea (with lots of help from other people):

"Extracting more Potential from Thirds by creating brand-new classes with them and keeping elements of the original game untouched by leaving the old classes alone". That's pretty much the idea of the way.
I also like the Straight-To-The-Top-System, since it cleans what is pretty much useless and meaningless in class progression: Rebirth. The heck is this? You trash all what you conquered to do it again? This is Korean suicidal behavior, come on.

But anyway, those are just suggestions, and Laborious ones. The one who's gonna work on them is Skotlex, so it's up to him what to do, and I seriously think that if he's going to choose the way by questioning: "Fits MouRO?" and "How much work is needed to apply?" It's his way that will be choosen.

I still want mine though. Why? Cause It got style.
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by to3phu on 30/8/2012, 04:15

oh but think of the fun build you can do!
Double casting wizzy, auto casting mage knights, priest pally, EDP smith, professor with linker, zerker slinger, sniper clown! A super creator that can smith!
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Vitriol on 30/8/2012, 06:09

yes free method. do it skot!
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Vitriol on 30/8/2012, 06:10

ill actually play mouro again if u do it Smile
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Skotlex on 30/8/2012, 08:39

The free method would lead to a few combinations that are overpowered.

Most melee classes could take an acolyte base to get healing and buffing skills.

Spellcaster classes could be combined to have a healer + damage dealer, or double-casting damage dealer.

In a way, I fear it'd be unbalanced enough that it would actually take away choice as only a few combinations become selected.

Not to mention the game is not designed for that, the client would not be able to display the skill trees xD'
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Vitriol on 30/8/2012, 16:20

i dont give a faaaaack just do it skot!
its not overpowered if other combos work just as well. you don't hear bards whining that they cannot solo an mvp, do you?
you can let us use console commands to level up if the client wont display it
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Lothar Axe on 30/8/2012, 16:28

You guys serious about fucking up with the game?
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Squishyyy on 30/8/2012, 18:17

Skot is right- Guild wars 1 had this problem with its dual class system. If I recall Monk Warrior or Warrior Monk was like one of the best or only decent options while the others sucked. There are ways around this, though. As for the skill tree, it depends on whether you're talking about client or server side limitations each of which are addressed differently. Remember that rankers magically have a skill tree created for them when they become 90+ ranker that gives them all skills for their class, while client side lua files have many options to address the other issues.

In short, I may be talking in circles here but I'm just trying to lay out all the options logically and give every option its due credit without irrationally streaking through the courtyard like some high school senior.

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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by to3phu on 30/8/2012, 19:54

of course if you cap the skill points, and you still have to get preq skills too, which just waste more skills points~

See, i was thinking you select your "base class" which will have all your bonus stats, max hp/mp, the set of gears you can wear, (so there be no point if youre an aco and get sword mastery), but a DD sin can get 1 hand mastery ~

I would totally not mind playing again if you did a wipe and implemented this =D
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Lothar Axe on 30/8/2012, 20:00

Well, free class way uh? Forget it, it's broken to the bone.
MouRO is nice how it is now, it just needs moar people and new stuff (Thirds). Also the server is weird enough as now, creating Free Class system is cutting the belly after smashing the balls with a thunder hammer.

I vote for Skotlex's Way since I gave up on mine, the new Ninja classes were the finishing blow.
But I will be a pain with suggestions, since some (most) skills need serious changes, yes, I will be there, in your shadows, whispering disorder.
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Vitriol on 31/8/2012, 01:00

shut up lothar.


FREEEE CLASSES!
you don't have to wipe the server, just create a third server
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Lothar Axe on 31/8/2012, 01:32

Vitriol wrote:shut up lothar.


FREEEE CLASSES!
you don't have to wipe the server, just create a third server

If it`s in another server then I don`t mind. Also, shut up you, what a pain.
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Vitriol on 31/8/2012, 01:49

you shut up!
what an anal wart you are!
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Lothar Axe on 31/8/2012, 02:49

Anyway, just going a bit off topic, is it just me or pages in this forum are endless? Somehow I feel it should have appeared a second one already.
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Vitriol on 31/8/2012, 07:06

shut up! it seems like your list of pointless suggestions is endless!
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Re: 3rd Classes

Post by Skotlex on 31/8/2012, 08:42

Vitriol is trying to be a troll :B

Hmm,I don't know how many posts go in each page, seeing how in the bottom it reads "Page 1 of 1",it does mean there should be a limit. It seems to be higher.

You'd rather it be just 10 posts per page?

Also, client-side the skill-tree is tied to the class. So having free class combinations would be possible, but it means you'd have to invent a client-side class for every single combination. Not to mention, how do you handle the prerequisites when you don't have the required skills from the first class? O>O' I think it would lead to over-complicating things... :<
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Re: 3rd Classes

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