General Suggestion

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Vitriol on 25/9/2012, 00:34

allow permanent skill memo for rogues!

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Skotlex on 25/9/2012, 09:28

Throw Venom Knife has no requirements if you use daggers (the idea being you are throwing your equipped dagger).

Pick Stone can pick five stones on a go... I see no reason to remove the catalyst requirement Surprised (those stones weight pretty much nothing anyway).

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Vitriol on 25/9/2012, 16:39

its just inconvenient and pointless to have pick stone

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Vitriol on 25/9/2012, 16:44

'casual and fun' he said...
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Failure on 25/9/2012, 17:56

Skotlex wrote:Throw Venom Knife has no requirements if you use daggers (the idea being you are throwing your equipped dagger).

Pick Stone can pick five stones on a go... I see no reason to remove the catalyst requirement Surprised (those stones weight pretty much nothing anyway).

So you see no reason to remove the catalyst requirement on the basis that the weigh nothing, you can carry a ton of them at a time, and you went out of your way to code it so you can pick up several catalysts at a time, along with equipping a dagger so you don't use a knife for TVK?

If it's so convenient and easy to do, why are we required to get the catalysts to begin with? I imagine the point of an item cost is to limit the skill in some way. This is not limiting in the slightest. The catalyst is unnecessary.

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Skotlex on 26/9/2012, 09:21

You could say the same for arrows, no?

At what point is it a change really supposed to be for the better of the game, rather than just to appease the lazy? To me it strikes me as a suggestion which entirely covers the latter.
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Failure on 26/9/2012, 11:48

Skotlex wrote:You could say the same for arrows, no?

At what point is it a change really supposed to be for the better of the game, rather than just to appease the lazy? To me it strikes me as a suggestion which entirely covers the latter.


Actually, no, you couldn't say the same for arrows. The catalysts for arrows have a unique purpose, either providing an element or a status effect. There is a meaningful decision to be made for what arrow you should be using for your attacks. I challenge you to find the meaningful gameplay decision behind pick and throw stone.

By the way, with how horrible archer classes are on Mou, maybe they would actually be enjoyable if they had infinite of whatever arrow they equipped. It'd certainly be the only advantage they have over a vanilla server's archer.

"Don't be lazy"? You are a hypocrite. If this was your line of reasoning to begin with you wouldn't have made pick stone get 5 at once instead of 1. Use the "don't be lazy" argument to justify Mou's lower experience rates with the logic that the game shouldn't let you max level quickly. Use it to justify the scavenger hunt of finding treasure guardians for goodies. Don't ever try "don't be lazy" when it comes to mashing the pick stone hotkey until you get the amount you want. That isn't interesting gameplay that should be defended, that's something it's entirely justified to be lazy about because it's boring and *not actually playing a game*.

Fixing things so there's less boring, more gameplay *is* bettering the game by making it more of a game.

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 26/9/2012, 12:38

Skotlex wrote:appease the lazy
This is a summary of the server features that make MouRO a different server, and should give a good idea whether you would like it or not :

  • Drops: Logarithmic (min 1%)
  • Even Share range: 30
  • Exp Share type is automatically changed as characters level or join/leave.
  • Item Amulet will warp you to the Party leader
  • Item Giant Fly Wing can be used by the party leader to warp the party to him.
  • Skip novice-class and move directly to your desired class.
  • 'Rebirth' requires you to reach max job level (100), base level won't be reset.
  • Job swapper service allows you to try different classes without a need to restart from scratch.
  • Shops with all cards and headgears available, as well as many of the basic equipments that exists. (editor's note : this is important)
  • Monsters will from time to time drop random items, which can be anything
  • Improved refine system does not destroys equipment on upgrade-fail
  • Uncarder available so you can recycle cards/equipment.
  • Death has no exp penalty. And you can auto-resurrect after a while if you stay dead long enough.
  • Rollback system allows you temporarily lose levels so you can help those with less experience
  • Skills with low cast/delay do not interrupt your auto-attack, which is resumed as soon as the delay is over.
  • Mobs drop random healing items to keep you going
  • When you delete a homunculus, you get the embryo back, so you don't have to keep making embryos to get the one you want.
  • Newly created homunculus will be at half your base level.

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by to3phu on 26/9/2012, 16:47

Am I the only one that made a melee gypsy? And kicked ass with it I might add.
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Lothar Axe on 26/9/2012, 18:57

to3phu wrote:Am I the only one that made a melee gypsy? And kicked ass with it I might add.
I made a melee bard.

Also... VOTE FOR ELEMENTAL STONES!!!
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 26/9/2012, 19:09

Lothar Axe wrote:
to3phu wrote:Am I the only one that made a melee gypsy? And kicked ass with it I might add.
I made a melee bard.

Also... VOTE FOR ELEMENTAL STONES!!!
I made a melee Assassin. She sucked.

Pick Stone gives you a different elemental stone depending on where you've used it. So if you Pick Stone in a mostly fire-elemental map, you get fire stones! \o

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by to3phu on 26/9/2012, 23:22

Oh please, melee sin is over-rated, it's all about bow sin
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Loki on 27/9/2012, 06:24

Pick stone once, use it until you log out/change character, pick stone again once you log in to use Throw Stone. Gimmick.

You really do wanna get your message across huh, Failure?
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Skotlex on 27/9/2012, 08:17

I read a bit of a reductionist argument up there. I guess it depends on how you define being lazy. In my opinion, staying in one place murdering the same monster a thousand times until you get the drop you want is pretty obnoxious, and not at all my idea of fun. Hence the shop with the cards and headgears (the cards because of their extremely low drop rate, the headgears because I don't want people suffering just so they can look good).

The throw stone skill is supposed to be one of those "for fun, almost useless" quest skills. I tried making it a bit better (hence its Base ATK-based damage), but it is nevertheless a ranged attack for what is normally a melee class (bow rangers excluded). As such, it should have some limitation compared to what an actual ranged attack is. That limitation is the picking of the stones beforehand.

I am not sure I get what the reason would be for removing the pick-stone skill. The only thing I would agree with is to add a casting time to throw-stone (to simulate the time in which your character will pick the stone), but I guess you wouldn't like that neither...
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Lothar Axe on 27/9/2012, 13:04

Throw Stone is quite limited. I've lvled a Thief some times ago and the ammo was trully the limitation. Even picking up like 60 rocks I ended up losing count and getting in risky situations as the ammunition ended (and it ends fast), and that was all the time. In theory it really doesn't makes sense, you can just pick up infinite rocks and that's it... but you don't do that, it's boring. (and I actually woudn't care if you give rocks a weight)

Throw Stone is a great skill for Thieves. The rare Stun effect can be very handy and bless you sometimes, you can weaken enemies from afar and finish them with a melee blow (if you can't run), thanks to @options you can double attack someone with Throw Stone by auto-casting it on the same enemy you're attacking with common attack, and sometimes finishing off enemies from afar can become a nice strategy tool, but the skill is really great because it's instant and got a low mana cost. So no, don't give it a cast.

Unfortunatelly it gets useless after you change class... this is the only sad thing about the skill right now, as you get throws/spells for ninjas, bow skills for rogues, and throws/ranged skills for assassins. I don't vote for changing this skill. I like Fruit's suggestion for element based on map... but it will be useless most times, as the monsters get the same element of the map... so you ain't gonna use those rocks on them. You would have to store stones from other maps to adventure into others.

As for "why do we need catalysts?" I think you should complain about ninja's catalysts and not about a rock. The fact that the "Rock" is a miscelanious item and you must open your bag to check if you still have some stones left, and the fact that relying too much on the stones might run you into a fix later is pretty realistic and works well as a limitation mechanic, I love it, and it works very well. Still, you don't have to BUY stones, you can pick up them anywhere with a single buttom with a more like nothing mana cost. But that's a bit different for Ninjas. They are the class whose skills need more catalysts in the game: 7 skills, 4 catalysts, wich cost around 400 zenny each I think. Why?! If we are gonna work as Hermetics Mages that need catalysts to blow a candle's flame then make Soul Linker, Mage and Acolyte classes need catalysts for everysingle shit too!!
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 27/9/2012, 13:27

The thing is that spell catalysts (gems, webs, ninja items) are theoretically a limiter for powerful skills. So you can't spam Safety Wall until your index finger disintegrates, you have a limit of 100~150 or whatever Safety Walls due to weight constraints, and you have to make a meaningful decision between healing items, gear and catalysts.

Of course, in practice everyone in RO who uses those skills has enough weight capacity one way or the other and will essentially have infinite catalysts. Also NPC-acquired Fresh Fish/Strawberries and 0 weight BG gear render the healing/gear/catalyst dilemma null and void.

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Lothar Axe on 27/9/2012, 13:38

Fruit Pie~ wrote:The thing is that spell catalysts (gems, webs, ninja items) are theoretically a limiter for powerful skills.

Now, where Raigekisai or Kamaitachi is stronger than Lord of Vermillion?
I think either this catalyst thing or ninja's spells should be reviewed, and hey, I HAVE IDEAS FOR DES SHIT!
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Failure on 27/9/2012, 15:10

Skotlex wrote:I am not sure I get what the reason would be for removing the pick-stone skill.

Because it has no point, frankly enough. Picking up the stones isn't fascinating gameplay, and Lothar's testimony shows that throwing stones is pretty pointless to begin with past first class. The "limitation" you mentioned really isn't a limit because one could pick stones near indefinitely, assuming they wanted to have a boring, unfun time picking infinite stones. If murdering a thousand monsters for a drop isn't fun, what makes creating a bunch of catalysts for a spell entertaining by comparison?

Skotlex wrote:The only thing I would agree with is to add a casting time to throw-stone (to simulate the time in which your character will pick the stone), but I guess you wouldn't like that neither...
This would make picking stones even LESS fun, what are you talking about? You are saying that if people want to use throw stone, they should spend less time actually playing the game and using it, more time casting the "create stone to throw" spell. This is poor design.

Try more interesting ways to limit throwing stones instead of "you have to pick them up". I recall stone-throwing in vanilla RO to pull aggro like crazy where other people attacking the mob would be ignored: That seems like both a useful thing and a bit of an interesting risk, given how dangerous getting dogpiled by monsters can be. Less stone-picking, more gameplay and gameplay decisions.


I do agree with the previous posts that, on the whole, catalysts are a vanilla limiter that doesn't do its job well enough on vanilla, much less Mou. Perhaps another thread could be made to look at it more closely.

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Loki on 27/9/2012, 18:36

Idea: catalysts amplifies damage while not using one gives you a weaker skill.
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Skotlex on 28/9/2012, 10:03

Or adjust catalyst prices. Ninjas are a strange bunch... they need a lot of catalysts for their many spells, and they don't quite seem to deal damage decent enough for it, even after the Nen/Soul Matk boost.

Magic ninjas should, of course, be less powerful than wizards. On the other hand, it hardly makes sense that they would be more expensive to gear up (due to the catalyst price).

Either the magic ninja damage output needs to be increased somehow (perhaps by improving the boost from Nen), or the catalysts need a comparable price to gemstones. Or both.

As for pick stone... meh. I am not convinced I should just remove the catalyst. Though I wouldn't mind figuring out a way to make it easier to collect them. Something like, using pick stone will cause you to continuously pick stones until hit/walk, and the skill level determines how fast you pick them. And then the rocks would have some sort of weight to make it unrealistic to just carry a thousand rocks with you (don't they, already?).

In a way, the skill is pretty useless after you get better alternatives from the second class skill tree, though I am not sure this is necessarily a problem (the same could be said in many other situations for the rest of classes).
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 28/9/2012, 11:39

Skotlex wrote:Or adjust catalyst prices. Ninjas are a strange bunch... they need a lot of catalysts for their many spells, and they don't quite seem to deal damage decent enough for it, even after the Nen/Soul Matk boost.

Magic ninjas should, of course, be less powerful than wizards. On the other hand, it hardly makes sense that they would be more expensive to gear up (due to the catalyst price).

Either the magic ninja damage output needs to be increased somehow (perhaps by improving the boost from Nen), or the catalysts need a comparable price to gemstones. Or both.

As for pick stone... meh. I am not convinced I should just remove the catalyst. Though I wouldn't mind figuring out a way to make it easier to collect them. Something like, using pick stone will cause you to continuously pick stones until hit/walk, and the skill level determines how fast you pick them. And then the rocks would have some sort of weight to make it unrealistic to just carry a thousand rocks with you (don't they, already?).

In a way, the skill is pretty useless after you get better alternatives from the second class skill tree, though I am not sure this is necessarily a problem (the same could be said in many other situations for the rest of classes).
Easy way to make it useful : Pick Stone can grab ammo for the second classes too (knives for the SinX, elemental stones for the Ninja, arrows for the Rogue).

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Failure on 28/9/2012, 13:29

Magic ninjas should, of course, be less powerful than wizards. On the other hand, it hardly makes sense that they would be more expensive to gear up (due to the catalyst price).

Please explain how, given two classes, one designed specifically for magic and the other able to be built to specialize in magic, that it's completely natural the latter should be straight-up less powerful than the former.

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 28/9/2012, 13:34

This reminds me of the vanilla WoW problem with Druids and Paladins where they could be tanks, healers or DPS depending on their build, but never two at the same time and never as good as the actual pure tank, healer or DPS classes.

Their fix was, in fact, to make them as good in a given role as the specialized classes.

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Lothar Axe on 28/9/2012, 16:05

Skotlex wrote:Magic ninjas should, of course, be less powerful than wizards.
Oh I didn't wanted to read that.
So we have a class that got 3 builds: Togatana (Ranged), Ninjutsu (Magic) and Taijutsu (Melee), but this class cannot be as strong as any of the other classes that are focused on each role? Well... then they are hybrids!!

NO!!!

They are NO FUCKING HYBRIDS, because there is NO FUCKING SKILL INTERACTION, there is NO FUCKING DIFFERENT SKILL USAGE BONUSES, THERE IS NO FUCKING REASON TO GO HYBRID!!! HYBRID IS EVEN WORSE!!!

Even after I suggested to buff hybridization:

NO!!!

is what I heard.

So well, let's laugh about this crap... and I like Fruit's suggestion for Pick Stone, though Throw Stone will stay useless.

Come on Skotlex, choose Ninja's destiny:
Or they become a SERIOUS HYBRID class, or they become 3 SERIOUS CLASSES in one, it's either way only.

Edit:
Oh, and I must remember here. Wich is the best Ninja Branch? Can you guess it? Well, I will answer ya:

NINJUTSU (Magic)!!!

I think no more words are needed uh.
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Failure on 28/9/2012, 20:49

Lothar Axe wrote:NO!!!

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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Skotlex on 1/10/2012, 10:55

Strong words, indeed.

Say, if a Ninja magic build were just as strong as a Wizard, wouldn't then the Ninja be always preferable? I mean, I imagine the other ninja skills would let them survive much better than wizards would. Or not? I can see the Wizard always having a range advantage, though (the AoE of their spells is better).

Perhaps ninjas can be just as strong as wizards if their shortcomings compared to them lies still elsewhere (such as having to stand in the middle of the enemies for some spells).
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Lothar Axe on 1/10/2012, 15:43

Skotlex wrote:Strong words, indeed.

Say, if a Ninja magic build were just as strong as a Wizard, wouldn't then the Ninja be always preferable? I mean, I imagine the other ninja skills would let them survive much better than wizards would. Or not? I can see the Wizard always having a range advantage, though (the AoE of their spells is better).

Perhaps ninjas can be just as strong as wizards if their shortcomings compared to them lies still elsewhere (such as having to stand in the middle of the enemies for some spells).

That if you're thinking that Ninjas are Mages with nice accessory skills, I hope seriously you aren't just thinking about that. What I'm trying to say here is that Ninjas aren't Weaker-Mages with survival habilities. They have too many skills, and most of them are overwhelmed by others, or should I say, Magic skills overwhelm all throw and melee skills.

Anyway, I am the only Hybrid Ninja I know in this server. People either go Togatana (suck) or Ninjutsu (nicey), so I will talk from the perspective of someone who actually uses all skills in battle, and I will first say WHY I actually do that: Cause it's cool.

Yeah, that's the only reason. Using all skills is FUN, and that's what I only seek when playing a dead server. It's a lot better than just spamming one shit.
But except that, I don't have a reason, for example, to switch between shurikens and kouenka, since I could just spam kouenka forever and that's that (wich is what I do when shurikens are over, and it works very well). Give me a reason to switch them.

Give me a reason to hide and go Kiri-Kage, since I could just spam kouenka.
Give me a reason to bash someone with envenom, push it with tatami gaeshi and use some shurikens after, since I could just spam kouenka on it.
Give me a reason to use Throw Huuma Shuriken, Kunai or Zenny Nage since I can use anything else.

And from all those examples you can just put Bakuenryu in kouenka's place if you're hitting more than one enemy, and to complement the damage use Kaenjin.
That's how a hybrid is.

Now let's talk about someone who focused on a branch:

Taijutsu: Envenom, Sand Attack, Kiri-Kage, Shadow Leap, Kasumi-Kiri, Tatami Gaeshi, Issen, Cicada-Shell and Busying-jutsu.

Envenom is your bash, but doesn't stun. (...). Sand Attack is useless after you get Kasumi-Kiri that blinds enemies. Kiri-Kage costs serious mana, does a decent damage (maybe) and is slow. Tatami Gaeshi pushes enemies and let you evade ranged attacks, usefull for the second effect. Issen costs your life to cause serious AoE damage, sucks at higher lvls. Cicada-Shell is the most annoying shit for melee, as you keep going back, useless. Busying-jutsu is usefull for some serious evasion. Well, sounds balanced, but doesn't work. Average damage is ridiculously low, all based on "they can survive well". It's annoying, just that. You can't level by surviving. You can't help party by just surviving. It's useless.

Togatana: Shuriken, Kunai, Huuma Shuriken, Zenny Nage and let's put Cicada-Shell and Busying-jutsu too.

Shuriken is your only skill. Spam it and you win. Kunai got elements and statuses but sucks, they are too heavy and slow for their damage, you can just switch elemental weapons and spam shuriken and it's better. Huuma Shuriken is just useless, low damage, slow as hell, and you need a Huuma to actually use it, it would be completelly useless for a Togatana focused character who would switch between elemental daggers. Zenny Nage... why spend 5000 zenny to cause 5000 damage when you can just spam 2 shurikens with a Togatana build and you get around 6000 damage, and that's with ONE shuriken (cause you can attack 3 times with one) that costs 40 zenny? Cicada-Shell and Busying-jutsu are both usefull for surviving on this one.

Taijutsu + Togatana: Why not? Stats are so similar!

Shuriken. Nothing else.

Ninjutsu: Kouenka, Kaenjin, Bakuenryu, Fuujin, Hyousensou, Suiton, Iceberg (forgot the name), Fuujin, Raigekisai, Kamaitachi, Nen, Cicada-Shell and Busying-jutsu.

One target ranged spells: Kouenka, Fuujin and Hyousensou.
Ground damaging spell: Kaenjin.
Area ranged targeted spell: Bakuenryu.
Area close quarters spell: Iceberg (Freezes), Raigekisai (Silences).
Corridor like damaging ranged spell: Kamaitachi.
Edit: Area Slowing spell: Suiton

All right, you got lotsa tools for the trick, but you skill lack damage. It's a matter of:
- Mages attack from affar with damage X
- Ninjas attack at closer quarters (see Kouenka, Iceberg and Raigekisai), but they have survival stuff, so it's ok, but with damage X-Y.
Now tell me, is it balanced?

"The Hell Ninjas Are" is what I'm asking, cause I can't see what they are when comparing your answers with an analisys of the class here.

If they are Hybrids give me a reason to switch between skills based on each situation, give me bonuses for situations, bonuses for sequences or combinations of skills. If they are 3-2 classes in one, make each branch actually work accordingly to it's role at the same level as the others who share this role. And if they are just Mages with survival stuff, go to hell.

That's my message about this class, thanks for reading.


Last edited by Lothar Axe on 1/10/2012, 19:47; edited 3 times in total
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Re: General Suggestion

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 1/10/2012, 16:03

"Mages with survival stuff" is made even more absurd by the fact all the other full casters (HW, Prof and HP) have better survivability options than the Ninja.

Except maybe the HW, but still, between Safety Wall, E-Coat and the sheer volume of super long range AoE status effects you should be dealing, the HW stands ahead of the Ninja's diluted mix of a slightly bigger health pool and either Shell or Illusion (Tatamigaeshi has just enough delay to completely hamper your offense, IIRC).

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Re: General Suggestion

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