Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Lothar Axe on 10/10/2012, 01:33

Vitriol wrote:refer to the paragraph above, genius


That doesn't answers my question.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Failure on 10/10/2012, 01:36

to3phu wrote:[gumshoe]
Well, don't we all start somewhere. But what you're saying that it's an undeniable fate that unless you read the game inside and out you'll never get anywhere. I'm sure our man here skot, has put down what each stats does the the training ground..or I have hope. (I never in my life have tried it)


Detective, try not to repeatedly quote your own, or other people's faces when quoting. It leads to even more images than this thread already has. Remember your next salary evaluation is coming soon.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 01:37

Failure wrote:
This is actually a decent enough post that I'll rip it apart.

Vitriol wrote:i did not say that he should not read the info, i said that (parts of ) it is outdated.
Wrong, read my post (and your own post) more closely. You said "he obviously isn't going to read the info". I said you thought he wasn't going to read the info. At no point did I say that you said that. (This sounds like a lot of double-talk, so to make it more clear: I never said what you claim I'm saying.)
Vitriol wrote:and it is a simple fact that if someone does not bother reading the documentation, they cannot be expected to have a decent build.
You state in your own post that the documentation is outdated. Why would reading documentation that's not complete, outdated, and outright lies to you an improvement over reading nothing at all? Also, you continue the bad faith argument that alloyc hasn't read the docs for some reason.
Vitriol wrote:unless you suggest that skot make the stat system closer to vanilla. but the entire server is predicated on being different; skot would not keep this server running if it was the same as all the others
Nobody is asking for this: being different is fine, but Mou does it in very confusing and poorly-documented ways. We wouldn't have half the problems we had if there were more posts like to3phu's. Read it in its entirety and tell me how much of it is intuitive, common sense. Essentially, we're looking for good game design.
Vitriol wrote:sooooo, my point remains undisputed
Your point is almost entirely on a bad-faith argument about alloyc. There is nothing to dispute about it because it's completely fictional and not even a point: simply a personal attack.
well, then you definitely said that he should not read the documentation
Spoiler:

You immediately assume our friend here isn't going to read the information they really shouldn't be reading anyway, used that to justify giving up before you even started, finally insulting them for good measure.

how do you expect someone to make a good build without knowing how the stats work? by blindly putting their points towards a vanilla build?
while parts of the documentation are outdated, not all of it is. its enough to get a decent build, which is more than you can get by not reading it.
and its not a personal attack. its a very reasonable assumption. if he is still fighting elder willows at diff 1 after 1 month and having trouble with even that, then he is definitely doing something wrong. and not just the equip. you could be fighting elder willows naked at level 30 and diff 1 and not have any trouble with a decent build. so obviously he is either exaggerating about the difficulty level, or his build is fucked up

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by to3phu on 10/10/2012, 01:38

Fruit Pie~ wrote: EDIT : And you learn something every day, too - I didn't know LUK affected Flame Skull. I thought it only worked on spell autocast cards.




Actually I was wrong it IS only cast, I forgot that gram card would be more broken if it was true
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 01:39

Lothar Axe wrote:
Vitriol wrote:refer to the paragraph above, genius


That doesn't answers my question.


Vitriol wrote:
Failure wrote:
Vitriol wrote:besides, he obviously isnt going to bother reading about all the stat changes on the website (which are outdated anyway) so he will never have a minimaxed build; he is a casual player, his build will suck the shit off of a goats balls.

You immediately assume our friend here isn't going to read the information they really shouldn't be reading anyway, used that to justify giving up before you even started, finally insulting them for good measure.

Posting bannable-elsewhere garbage is pretty standard for you, though: I shouldn't be surprised you'd apply it to drive off the one person probably still playing MouRO. At least with your drag-queen gimmick I can recognize when to scroll past.
i did not say that he should not read the info, i said that (parts of ) it is outdated.
and it is a simple fact that if someone does not bother reading the documentation, they cannot be expected to have a decent build. unless you suggest that skot make the stat system closer to vanilla. but the entire server is predicated on being different; skot would not keep this server running if it was the same as all the others


fact: skot will not revert the stat system to vanilla
fact: newbs will continue to make shitty builds unless they bother to read the documentation on the stat system
fact: documentation = not a casual server, which was probably the major selling point for the newbie since he obviously did not bother to read the documentation
fact: wow is much more casual than mouro. even skot would recommend guild wars 2 over his own server.
sooooo, my point remains undisputed

yes it does. the implication is that skot put a lot of work into the server and it different from other servers, which is why he will keep it running as long as somebody wants to play.
derp
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by to3phu on 10/10/2012, 01:42



Sadly, I think you're giving skot too much credit about running the server. IIRC he gets free hosting.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 10/10/2012, 01:43

Vitriol wrote:that is because you have already memorized the relationships between the stats. how would you expect to make a good build if you did not know the relationship between dex and int for cast time and matk? if you didnt know about dmr?


And how is he expected to know about those? By reading the documentation?

Lemme give you reminders of how good the documentation is about those.

Intelligence


  • Decreases spell delay
  • Increases spell cast times (never above 100%)

Dexterity


  • Reduces skill cast times
  • Raises spell delay (never above 100%)
Let's start from the beginning : those are lies. Spell cast time and spell delay DO go above 100% if you stack enough INT and DEX. How do you know this? The almost undocumented @option that allows you to see hidden character stats. And only if you try multiple builds and gears with that @option to see that yes, indeed, the stat page lies.

Also, you're never fully informed about the effects : how do they affect spells that are instant cast and have no delay? What constitutes a spell - is Gloria Domini one? How about Grand Cross? Acid Demonstration? How do they stack with cards? What is their minimum (and they do have a minimum! 15% cast and 20% delay IIRC)? Can you dip below the minimum with card stacking or is it fixed?

And, of course, you don't know the exact math behind those, which might as well be random. All you know is that the first few stat points affect cast time/delay greatly - 50 base DEX will net you fastest cast with any class, even the super high INT ones. But if you put even a couple points in INT, your cast time is shot to hell. In fact, INT seems to increase MINIMUM cast time, too. Is that informed anywhere? Doesn't seem so.

And about DMR? There is almost zero way to know about it. It's technically in-game, in a single line in the second-to-last room at the very fucking end, and nobody is going to stick around the fourth room for that long because the text is relatively slow compared to leveling speed. Also it's missable if you go AFK for any reason.

But is DMR on the site? Yes. In one page hidden away from everything else. Lord knows I only found it via Google. It's a transcript of the Floor 4 Newbie Grounds text, tucked so far up the server's ass it's leaving the digestive system. It's also a single line, doesn't explain the math behind it (appears to be -10% effects per card/gear you add, stacking by multiplication) and implies it works with everything (so two different damage bonues would face DMR when put together).

Tofu hasn't read the documentation inside out. He knows all this because he's experienced. Because he's played this for so long, he knows it on instinct! How is that good, casual design? (two of the main tenets of MouRO, or at least I hope the first is)


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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 01:43

to3phu wrote:
Vitriol wrote:
to3phu wrote:
Vitriol wrote:
fact: newbs will continue to make shitty builds unless they bother to read the documentation on the stat system



I never read it, cept for elemental chart mixing.
that is because you have already memorized the relationships between the stats. how would you expect to make a good build if you did not know the relationship between dex and int for cast time and matk? if you didnt know about dmr?
youd waste precious points in vain trying to cancel out dmr


Well, don't we all start somewhere. But what you're saying that it's an undeniable fate that unless you read the game inside and out you'll never get anywhere. I'm sure our man here skot, has put down what each stats does the the training ground..or I have hope. (I never in my life have tried it)
yes you will get somewhere. you will get a half shitty half decent build that wastes points trying to overcome dmr when you could have focused on one thing while trying to compensate for weaknesses by carding and equipping (and thereby avoiding the stat dmr problem but now having to deal with equip dmr)
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 01:43

to3phu wrote:

Sadly, I think you're giving skot too much credit about running the server. IIRC he gets free hosting.
i agree, skot is a useless bastard
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Failure on 10/10/2012, 01:49

vitriol wrote:well, then you definitely said that he should not read the documentation

For what other purpose would you point out the documentation's outdated (and continue to do so in this post)? The docs are not good, misinform and sometimes outright lie to you.

vitriol wrote:its enough to get a decent build, which is more than you can get by not reading it.
vitriol wrote:and its not a personal attack. its a very reasonable assumption.
I'd like to refer to Fruit's post that no, it's not enough to get a decent build, and no, it's not an unreasonable assumption that you can read the documentation and still be bad at the game. You are insisting that it's somehow alloyc's fault when we are demonstrating how it can not be.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Lothar Axe on 10/10/2012, 01:54

Vitriol wrote:yes it does. the implication is that skot put a lot of work into the server and it different from other servers, which is why he will keep it running as long as somebody wants to play.
derp



Wrong answer. You based your arguments on this server being harder than other games, and thanks to that anything goes.
You don't wanna face the idea of turning this server into an easier experience, or should I say casual.
You're against the idea of someone facing hardships in this condition, thus, you blame an alleged incompetence.

The right answer is one: This server is up for the players, not for your meaningless caprice.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 01:57

Fruit Pie~ wrote:
Vitriol wrote:that is because you have already memorized the relationships between the stats. how would you expect to make a good build if you did not know the relationship between dex and int for cast time and matk? if you didnt know about dmr?


And how is he expected to know about those? By reading the documentation?

Lemme give you reminders of how good the documentation is about those.
Intelligence


  • Decreases spell delay
  • Increases spell cast times (never above 100%)

Dexterity


  • Reduces skill cast times
  • Raises spell delay (never above 100%)
Let's start from the beginning : those are lies. Spell cast time and spell delay DO go above 100% if you stack enough INT and DEX. How do you know this? The almost undocumented @option that allows you to see hidden character stats. And only if you try multiple builds and gears with that @option to see that yes, indeed, the stat page lies.

Also, you're never fully informed about the effects : how do they affect spells that are instant cast and have no delay? What constitutes a spell - is Gloria Domini one? How about Grand Cross? Acid Demonstration? How do they stack with cards? What is their minimum (and they do have a minimum! 15% cast and 20% delay IIRC)? Can you dip below the minimum with card stacking or is it fixed?

And, of course, you don't know the exact math behind those, which might as well be random. All you know is that the first few stat points affect cast time/delay greatly - 50 base DEX will net you fastest cast with any class, even the super high INT ones. But if you put even a couple points in INT, your cast time is shot to hell. In fact, INT seems to increase MINIMUM cast time, too. Is that informed anywhere? Doesn't seem so.

And about DMR? There is almost zero way to know about it. It's technically in-game, in a single line in the second-to-last room at the very fucking end, and nobody is going to stick around the fourth room for that long because the text is relatively slow compared to leveling speed. Also it's missable if you go AFK for any reason.

But is DMR on the site? Yes. In one page hidden away from everything else. Lord knows I only found it via Google. It's a transcript of the Floor 4 Newbie Grounds text, tucked so far up the server's ass it's leaving the digestive system. It's also a single line, doesn't explain the math behind it (appears to be -10% effects per card/gear you add, stacking by multiplication) and implies it works with everything (so two different damage bonues would face DMR when put together).

Tofu hasn't read the documentation inside out. He knows all this because he's experienced. Because he's played this for so long, he knows it on instinct! How is that good, casual design? (two of the main tenets of MouRO, or at least I hope the first is)
well, @option is documented. and if you used it, you could easily figure out which information is unreliable
and without the documentation for the individual stats, you wont even know which parameters to check for changes when you add a stat. ie. if tophu did not know to look at the walk speed when changing vitality, and he did not note the value before adding a point to vit, then how would he know that vit slows ur walking speed? by intuition? i'm sure that he would notice the .1% reduction in speed each time he adds a point to vit...lol


the stat documentation can at least give you an idea of what to look for in @option. so yes, the documentation is essential for newbs. you don't expect tophu to hold classroom sessions in mouro, do you? out of the >5 newbs that I have seen gone by, this is the first time anyone has mentioned @option to them in the forum. so where would they find out about that, if not from the documentation?


they do not need to know exact formulas for dmr. its just enough to know that @option exists. then they can attempt to minimax their builds and equip. but without reading the documentation, most of them will not have the tools to do that.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 01:59

Lothar Axe wrote:
Vitriol wrote:yes it does. the implication is that skot put a lot of work into the server and it different from other servers, which is why he will keep it running as long as somebody wants to play.
derp



Wrong answer. You based your arguments on this server being harder than other games, and thanks to that anything goes.
You don't wanna face the idea of turning this server into an easier experience, or should I say casual.
You're against the idea of someone facing hardships in this condition, thus, you blame an alleged incompetence.

The right answer is one: This server is up for the players, not for your meaningless caprice.
i already said that -_-
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Lothar Axe on 10/10/2012, 02:05

Vitriol wrote:i already said that -_-



If you have said "This server is up for the players, not for Vitriol's meaningless caprice", then we can start working on turning the server more casual. Bring back the @diff suggestion, I will drink a coffee and watch some series. Good night.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 10/10/2012, 02:10

Vitriol wrote:Words.


Ah yes, the "throw darts at a dartboard" method of minmaxing. You just randomly toss things at a wall and see what sticks, maybe after hundreds or thousands of stat resets and gear changes because you have no idea what exactly some change will do other than in the vaguest terms (this INT buff will make me cast slower, but hit harder! Maybe!).

It's quite popular in Mou. Not in Vanilla of course because that engine has been cracked wide open, the stats are known, have fixed effects and in general it's extremely easy to mathematically define a character's options' usefulness in various situations.

But Mou, Mou is different you see!

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 02:15

Lothar Axe wrote:
Vitriol wrote:i already said that -_-



If you have said "This server is up for the players, not for Vitriol's meaningless caprice", then we can start working on turning the server more casual. Bring back the @diff suggestion, I will drink a coffee and watch some series. Good night.
ca┬Ěprice (k-prs)
n.
1.
a. An impulsive change of mind.
b. An inclination to change one's mind impulsively.
c. A sudden, unpredictable action, change, or series of actions or changes


oookay. because my impulsive decisions have such a great impact on the server right?
Spoiler:
hint: the above statement is only true if i am skotlex
your statement implies that the server was somehow at the mercy of my caprice, which is not true.
and so the first part of my statement holds: the server is still up because somebody still wants to play.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by to3phu on 10/10/2012, 02:18

Vitriol wrote:. you will get a half shitty half decent build that wastes points trying to overcome dmr when you could have focused on one thing while trying to compensate for weaknesses by carding and equipping (and thereby avoiding the stat dmr problem but now having to deal with equip dmr)




Well...no FUCKING duh you want to compensate your weakness with gears, it has to compliment what you're going for.

Funny, you don't even know my build...most my stats build is quite balance actually and still kick ass. This what i call 100/35 stats. Sure you can stack one stats, but the cost is too great, why when you can benefit much more for other stats? Weapon drm, lol. Here, my gunslinger, which I made personally try to make it broken as possible (works for pretty much all physical attacking class)




lets see..with a base attack of 606...
606*1.37*1.1*1.22*1.55*1.3(paper card) = 2245 base damage too a player, or a poor demi human monster

Even though my weapon was built to murder medium (don't worry i have one for you peco riders) human targets, I can still hit cap quite often on monsters.


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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Failure on 10/10/2012, 02:19


Vitriol wrote:i'm sure that he would notice the .1% reduction in speed each time he adds a point to vit...lol
Actually, he would. Reset, place all your points in one stat, and see how it affects you. Repeat.

Vitriol wrote:out of the >5 newbs that I have seen gone by, this is the first time anyone has mentioned @option to them in the forum. so where would they find out about that, if not from the documentation?
You're going to have to try a little better than that: a single instance of @option being mentioned on the forum does not mean either of the following are true: that one newbie didn't know about it or all the other newbies did.

Vitriol wrote:you could easily figure out which information is unreliable
Vitriol, nobody should have to do this. The amount of documentation Mou has should not be needed. This is throwing unreliable docs at newbies, giving them a tool to attempt to reverse-engineer it, and leaving them to their own merry affairs. Can you think of any recent video game you've played that did this to you as a player? There's a reason it's not a very popular game design choice.

Mou needs clear, concise documention and manuals that ideally wouldn't even need to be read to dive right in, easy to understand mechanics that add depth without complexity, and a smooth transition method for vanilla players to get comfortable with Mou's changes. We don't have this, you even admit we don't have the first point. What we have instead are docs that actually lie to you, a befuddled mess of massive formulas and mysterious attributes, and a constant puzzlement as we reverse-engineer why your ASPD plummets with this card but not with this other card.

Funny, Mou's problems can be solved in the same way many newbies solve theirs: a reset, starting from the beginning, and rebuilding with new knowledge in mind.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 02:24

Vitriol wrote:
Failure wrote:
Vitriol wrote:i did not say that he should not read the info, i said that (parts of ) it is outdated.
Wrong, read my post (and your own post) more closely. You said "he obviously isn't going to read the info". I said you thought he wasn't going to read the info. At no point did I say that you said that. (This sounds like a lot of double-talk, so to make it more clear: I never said what you claim I'm saying.)
Failure wrote:
vitriol wrote:well, then you definitely said that he should not read the documentation

For what other purpose would you point out the documentation's outdated (and continue to do so in this post)? The docs are not good, misinform and sometimes outright lie to you.

vitriol wrote:its enough to get a decent build, which is more than you can get by not reading it.
vitriol wrote:and its not a personal attack. its a very reasonable assumption.
I'd like to refer to Fruit's post that no, it's not enough to get a decent build, and no, it's not an unreasonable assumption that you can read the documentation and still be bad at the game. You are insisting that it's somehow alloyc's fault when we are demonstrating how it can not be.
you contradict yourself -_-
well regardless of whether you said that he should not read the documentation, or whether you said that i said that he should not read the documentation, he should in fact read the documentation
the documentation is essential because it is a starting point for making a build. most new players nowadays come and go without ever finding out about @option or how the stats counter each other. or do you expect tophu to go ingame, hunt down every newbie, and school them in the ways on mou?
stat documentation + @option = enough tools to be able to figure out a build
and to put this all in context, he is having trouble with elder willows at diff 1 after 1 month
how else can he consistently be so bad at this game?
1. he is exaggerating
2. he has multiple sclerosis and cannot aim
3. he has a shitty build
a competent build will not have trouble with elder willows, even with no equip at diff 1. therefore it is unreasonable to think that a competent build can consistently have trouble with elder willows at diff 1.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by to3phu on 10/10/2012, 02:24



I find it funny to how i built my characters by lowering your primary stats as much as possible while hitting cap as much as possible

(Most people should anyways, if you can afford the gears)
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 02:29

to3phu wrote:
Vitriol wrote:. you will get a half shitty half decent build that wastes points trying to overcome dmr when you could have focused on one thing while trying to compensate for weaknesses by carding and equipping (and thereby avoiding the stat dmr problem but now having to deal with equip dmr)




Well...no FUCKING duh you want to compensate your weakness with gears, it has to compliment what you're going for.

Funny, you don't even know my build...most my stats build is quite balance actually and still kick ass. This what i call 100/35 stats. Sure you can stack one stats, but the cost is too great, why when you can benefit much more for other stats? Weapon drm, lol. Here, my gunslinger, which I made personally try to make it broken as possible (works for pretty much all physical attacking class)




lets see..with a base attack of 606...
606*1.37*1.1*1.22*1.55*1.3(paper card) = 2245 base damage too a player, or a poor demi human monster

Even though my weapon was built to murder medium (don't worry i have one for you peco riders) human targets, I can still hit cap quite often on monsters.
when i posited that example, i was actually thinking of a priest build. ie. why put any points into int when you can get max heal by equips, and fast cast from dex?
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Failure on 10/10/2012, 02:34


vitriol wrote:you contradict yourself -_-
I'll concede it.

vitriol wrote:words on documentation
Please read the previous posts, particularly Fruit's and an examination of Tophu's build, regarding why the stat documentation really should not be taken as sound advice. Also, please read my last post regarding relying on @option or @info to work out a build: this isn't something a casual server should have you be doing.

You are starting to repeat yourself.

Tophu - Please log on Steam. I'd like to add you.


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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 02:35

Failure wrote:
Vitriol wrote:i'm sure that he would notice the .1% reduction in speed each time he adds a point to vit...lol
Actually, he would. Reset, place all your points in one stat, and see how it affects you. Repeat.

Vitriol wrote:out of the >5 newbs that I have seen gone by, this is the first time anyone has mentioned @option to them in the forum. so where would they find out about that, if not from the documentation?
You're going to have to try a little better than that: a single instance of @option being mentioned on the forum does not mean either of the following are true: that one newbie didn't know about it or all the other newbies did.
well, the following is true: if they did know about it, they knew about it by reading the documentation, or by being told about it ingame. considering how inactive the older players are, its logical to assume that the majority of newbies find out from documentation, or not at all.
Vitriol wrote:you could easily figure out which information is unreliable
Vitriol, nobody should have to do this. The amount of documentation Mou has should not be needed. This is throwing unreliable docs at newbies, giving them a tool to attempt to reverse-engineer it, and leaving them to their own merry affairs. Can you think of any recent video game you've played that did this to you as a player? There's a reason it's not a very popular game design choice.

Mou needs clear, concise documention and manuals that ideally wouldn't even need to be read to dive right in, easy to understand mechanics that add depth without complexity, and a smooth transition method for vanilla players to get comfortable with Mou's changes. We don't have this, you even admit we don't have the first point. What we have instead are docs that actually lie to you, a befuddled mess of massive formulas and mysterious attributes, and a constant puzzlement as we reverse-engineer why your ASPD plummets with this card but not with this other card.

Funny, Mou's problems can be solved in the same way many newbies solve theirs: a reset, starting from the beginning, and rebuilding with new knowledge in mind.
true. but you speak of an ideal situation. the reality is that if they want a decent build, they have to at least have an idea of what the stats might do, and then use @option to figure out a build.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 10/10/2012, 02:37



Go back to the post where I talked about "instant cast no delay spells". Holy Light is an instant cast, no delay spell with the equivalent of magical EDP.

With the right - and completely, completely off the wall nobody could guess it except by chance - combination of ASPD gear, holy light/magic damage gear and all the INT your stat points can possibly afford, you have the game's most powerful single target DPS caster.

It's a combination of mechanics that allow you to play a supposedly supportive class as some sort of ridiculous gish healer/caster that takes eight seconds to heal a small bit (INT DMR, upwards of 200% cast time) and two seconds to down someone with the Ion Cannon (DMR doesn't apply to all the mods at once if you use enough of them, and Holy Light has a LOT of damage mods, as well as firing like a machinegun).

It's unintended and would be unbalanced if there wasn't widely available armor that literally heals you for 9999 every time Shinkuu Holy Light hits you and a long buff that makes you immune to Turn Undead, and one of the prime examples of all clashing mechanics coming together for one large-scale assault on gameplay.


Last edited by Fruit Pie~ on 10/10/2012, 02:38; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 02:37

Failure wrote:
vitriol wrote:you contradict yourself -_-
I'll concede it.

vitriol wrote:words on documentation
Please read the previous posts, particularly Fruit's and an examination of Tophu's build, regarding why the stat documentation really should not be taken as sound advice. Also, please read my last post regarding relying on @option or @info to work out a build: this isn't something a casual server should have you be doing.

You are starting to repeat yourself.

Tophu - Please log on Steam. I'd like to add you.
i repeat myself because you missed the point. i did not say that the documentation was completely accurate and reliable. i have only referred to it as a starting point in the absence of ingame assistance. and realistically speaking, a newbie will not have much ingame assistance
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Failure on 10/10/2012, 02:37

vitriol wrote:true. but you speak of an ideal situation. the reality is that if they want a decent build, they have to at least have an idea of what the stats might do, and then use @option to figure out a build.

And, again, this is not something a casual server should have you be doing. This is hunt-and-peck typing but for stat builds. It's something fundamentally flawed with Mou's documentation and mechanics, and needs fixing.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 10/10/2012, 02:39

Fruit Pie~ wrote:

Go back to the post where I talked about "instant cast no delay spells". Holy Light is an instant cast, no delay spell with the equivalent of magical EDP.

With the right - and completely, completely off the wall nobody could guess it except by chance - combination of ASPD gear, holy light/magic damage gear and all the INT your stat points can possibly afford, you have the game's most powerful single target DPS caster.

It's a combination of mechanics that allow you to play a supposedly supportive class as some sort of ridiculous gish healer/caster that takes eight seconds to heal a small bit (INT DMR, upwards of 200% cast time) and two seconds to down someone with the Ion Cannon (DMR doesn't apply to all the mods at once if you use enough of them, and Holy Light has a LOT of damage mods, as well as firing like a machinegun).

It's unintended and would be unbalanced if there wasn't widely available armor that literally heals you for 9999 every time Shinkuu Holy Light hits you and a long buff that makes you immune to Turn Undead, and one of the prime examples of all clashing mechanics coming together for one large assault on gameplay.
this entire discussion is about newbies having difficulties making builds. since when do newbies need to compete with 10k holy lights in a pvp setting?
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by to3phu on 10/10/2012, 02:43

Vitriol wrote: when i posited that example, i was actually thinking of a priest build. ie. why put any points into int when you can get max heal by equips, and fast cast from dex?



Cause heal has a high ass base matk % not to mention you get a tiny bit of matk with agi, and weapon attack which is actually important for magic classes. And on top of that your rod's matk %



(I like to see someone and try to kill my priest)
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

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