Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 25/9/2012, 16:53

Vitriol wrote:
Fruit Pie~ wrote:
Vitriol wrote:More words.
Have you even been to the newbie maps? They're already relatively mobby. Like every other map in the game, since Skot balanced their spawn rates to be per map size (so Juperos has roughly the same amount of mobs as Louyang fields), and there's already like three or four mobs per screen. By how much would you increase that so it doesn't shit all over single-target DPS classes, considering all mobs have support and lower diff not only kills off most maps for decent EXP but removes only their aggressive tag, not their support tag?

EDIT : Unless something changed since I last played, of course.
so small maps = low spawn? thanks for proving my point!
btw, any single dps player who isnt retarded knows how to lure and kite without aggroing. also, im pretty sure that the mobs do not aggro so easily. i posted about it in the previous forum and skot fixed something about aggro in the training grounds
Small maps have the exact same spawn per screen, do you even read what I type.

Of course they're lower spawn, but something like Payon Cave will have the same overall DENSITY than, say, the earlier Thanatos floors. And the respawn is instant save for seal monsters, which are an entirely different beast anyway.

You go lure and kite those mobs with Supportive when there are more mobs on screen, then. When you're a low level melee class. Give it a shot.

What do you expect swordsmen to do, hope to god they can wield a Tomahawk? Do thieves use a range 5 bow to do it? Please share your secrets, I'm sure they work and are not terrible at all.

EDIT : Again, unless Skot changed it, mobs have Support for every mob in the game. So if you hit anything, everything else in range is going to swarm you.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 25/9/2012, 17:08

density is defined as the ratio of number of monsters
to walkable space (not to the overall map size). the training grounds has lots of walkable space, therefore the TG density is lower than that of payon caves.
considering that i have 3+ swordie classes, 4+acolytes, and at least 2+ of every other class which i made before skot fixed the support aggro, i know how easy it is. also, i am preeeetty sure that skot removed aggro from the training ground below a certain diff level. i posted about it in the old forums and he fixed it.
even if they do aggro, just bash them and pot. once again, unless you are retarded and decided to put all ur points into luck, then you can easily kill a mob of 5. acolyes can holy light them ans respec after levelling. thieves are easy too...

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 25/9/2012, 17:28

Vitriol wrote:density is defined as the ratio of number of monsters
to walkable space (not to the overall map size). the training grounds has lots of walkable space, therefore the TG density is lower than that of payon caves.
considering that i have 3+ swordie classes, 4+acolytes, and at least 2+ of every other class which i made before skot fixed the support aggro, i know how easy it is. also, i am preeeetty sure that skot removed aggro from the training ground below a certain diff level. i posted about it in the old forums and he fixed it.
even if they do aggro, just bash them and pot. once again, unless you are retarded and decided to put all ur points into luck, then you can easily kill a mob of 5. acolyes can holy light them ans respec after levelling. thieves are easy too...
Congratulations for spending so much time playing on an empty server, I guess? I leveled Swordsmen and Acolytes too and you can't honestly tell me leveling a Magician or Archer early on isn't absurdly easier with the long range burst damage not triggering support and killing you instantly. (of course when you change to second class you actually get decent options/survivability across the board)

Also, those five mobs Fire Bolt you for 400 damage each and you die twice. It's like you don't even play MouRO! Mob burst starts out ridiculous and gets much, much lower as you go - said "retarded" full LUK build can actually mob a shit ton of stuff at Lv150.

Also also, trying to find the part of the site which talks about the mob density changes. I'm not entirely sure if it's by walkable space or by overall size. If it's by overall size it is, in fact, very dumb, especially considering eAthena has a walkable space calculator (IIRC).

EDIT : Except Hunters. Hunters get jack shit. Screw Hunters forever.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Failure on 25/9/2012, 17:48

Fruit Pie~ wrote:If you're going diff 1 you don't really care about the experience at all. It's there for skipping maps or catching pets, it seems, but whatever.

Diff 1 on the newbie maps just makes things less aggressive (they can't delevel further) so you have an easier time positioning yourself to avoid such mobs. Somehow I think covering every inch of the map in Porings would work against that.



I don't care much for whatever sissy slapfight is going on at the moment (maybe later), but from what I recall of my MouRO Experience (tm) @diff 1 isn't even useful for skipping maps, because it took some time and some mob slaying before new, weaker mobs started to spawn.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 25/9/2012, 22:27

Fruit Pie~ wrote:
Vitriol wrote:density is defined as the ratio of number of monsters
to walkable space (not to the overall map size). the training grounds has lots of walkable space, therefore the TG density is lower than that of payon caves.
considering that i have 3+ swordie classes, 4+acolytes, and at least 2+ of every other class which i made before skot fixed the support aggro, i know how easy it is. also, i am preeeetty sure that skot removed aggro from the training ground below a certain diff level. i posted about it in the old forums and he fixed it.
even if they do aggro, just bash them and pot. once again, unless you are retarded and decided to put all ur points into luck, then you can easily kill a mob of 5. acolyes can holy light them ans respec after levelling. thieves are easy too...
Congratulations for spending so much time playing on an empty server, I guess? I leveled Swordsmen and Acolytes too and you can't honestly tell me leveling a Magician or Archer early on isn't absurdly easier with the long range burst damage not triggering support and killing you instantly. (of course when you change to second class you actually get decent options/survivability across the board)

Also, those five mobs Fire Bolt you for 400 damage each and you die twice. It's like you don't even play MouRO! Mob burst starts out ridiculous and gets much, much lower as you go - said "retarded" full LUK build can actually mob a shit ton of stuff at Lv150.

Also also, trying to find the part of the site which talks about the mob density changes. I'm not entirely sure if it's by walkable space or by overall size. If it's by overall size it is, in fact, very dumb, especially considering eAthena has a walkable space calculator (IIRC).

EDIT : Except Hunters. Hunters get jack shit. Screw Hunters forever.
remind me how a level 20 can get killed instantly by a poring? you mean when all of them have uber skills and they all decide to use them at the same time? happens very often doesnt it?
and we are talking about the training grounds, not ur retarded lk build at level 150. if its somehow too difficult to level in the tg (lulz) and you are too stupid to do an easier build (free resets remember?) then LMFAO u fail horribly at mou
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 25/9/2012, 22:30

Fruit Pie~ wrote:Congratulations for spending so much time playing on an empty server, I guess? I leveled Swordsmen and Acolytes too and you can't honestly tell me leveling a Magician or Archer early on isn't absurdly easier with the long range burst damage not triggering support and killing you instantly. (of course when you change to second class you actually get decent options/survivability across the board)
baaaaawwwwww
baaaaaaaawwww


levelling a merchant is relatively harder than levelling a mage! baaaaaaaaaawwwwwww
baaaaaawwwww
baaaaaaaw
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 25/9/2012, 22:44

Serious question : You mad, bro?

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 26/9/2012, 00:32

u ragequit!
i win!
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 26/9/2012, 00:44

Vitriol wrote:u ragequit!
i win!
Clearly I'm the one raging. That is why you're typing incoherent rage posts and, subtly or otherwise, insulting me.

Try harder next time.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 26/9/2012, 01:27

is there a single person here whom i have not insulted?
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Failure on 26/9/2012, 01:30

Vitriol wrote:and we are talking about the training grounds, not ur retarded lk build at level 150. if its somehow too difficult to level in the tg (lulz) and you are too stupid to do an easier build (free resets remember?) then LMFAO u fail horribly at mou


So, basically, any new player to Mou that tries an approximately vanilla stat build, then. Who apparently deserve what they get, not knowing how to play in a way that won't get them killed repeatedly.

The better solution would be a forward-thinking system that doesn't have any "gotchas" when it comes to something as basic as fighting monsters in a training ground. This shouldn't even be an issue that has to be discussed, it just plain shouldn't exist.


Last edited by Failure on 26/9/2012, 01:32; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 26/9/2012, 01:32

Failure wrote:
Vitriol wrote:and we are talking about the training grounds, not ur retarded lk build at level 150. if its somehow too difficult to level in the tg (lulz) and you are too stupid to do an easier build (free resets remember?) then LMFAO u fail horribly at mou
/edgeworth
So, basically, any new player to Mou, then. Who apparently deserve what they get, not knowing how to play in a way that won't get them killed repeatedly.
Bonus points for basically no builds or general build guidelines from Vanilla working here. So even RO veterans are likely to screw themselves over on their first few dozen characters (actually putting points into the damage stat, for example).

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 26/9/2012, 01:43

Failure wrote:blah blah blah


good point...i havent insulted failure yet...
hmmmm...i gotta work on that
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 26/9/2012, 09:27

Looks like Vitriol likes earning enemies, even when doing an actual argument.

He's right that diff should be playing a role in how often monsters support each other as well as how often they go aggro on you (otherwise it wouldn't be what it deems itself to be, a difficulty adjuster).

I believe that the mob density adjuster will not completely override the default number of spawns, so if I specify that a map's spawns should be almost none, the adjuster will increase it, but not as much as another map who has a natural higher spawn rate.

I need to fix my client so I can go walk into that training ground and see how bad it is x_X (though, seeing four monsters at a time doesn't seem that mobby to me, monsters have a range of view much shorter than players).
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Failure on 26/9/2012, 11:55


Even four monsters on you can be a lot of trouble. Mou very heavily penalizes being attacked from more than one thing because of both the recoil and walking speed penalty you get per hit, along with less flee and defense from back/side attacks. Four monsters can easily be inescapable without a fly wing, and bigger crowds can leave you unable to move or act.

Unless you stack AGI, which makes no sense and is the last skill I would think of when wondering how to withstand blows more easily.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 26/9/2012, 12:27

What Edgeworth said, except I had more luck with, well, LUK as a PVM tanking stat. Of all the stats, stacking LUK to 250~300 helps you tank more (and is much easier to stack) than VIT or AGI.

Also, Skot, Mou's version of Juperos is really, really empty compared to Vanilla. So you either modified it by hand or your system overrides its ridiculously crazy huge mob quantities. I'm honestly curious as to how the mob density adjuster works, it's a weird beast that completely changes the leveling experience.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 27/9/2012, 08:40

Hmm, let's see. The mob density adjuster did the following changes to Juperos:

Code:
Mob count: 262 -> 180 [juperos_01]
Mob count: 290 -> 267 [juperos_02]
Mob count: 255 -> 119 [jupe_core]

Yeah, that's quite a bit. Basically, the adjuster works by counting the number of mobs normally spawned in a map, the number of walkable cells in said map. And then calculates the "cells/monsters" average for all maps (well, divided for dungeon maps and outdoor maps).

Then, this ratio is preserved for all maps within the following ranges:
Field maps: between 80% and 100%
Dungeon maps: between 90% and 110%

So, if Juperos has more than 110% of the average cells/mobs ratio, the number of mobs is reduced until it matches 110%.

There was a reason for the upper bounds... I think it was that if the upper bound was not there, then the maps which had "ridiculously crazy huge mob quantities" would of course become the preferred maps to level, causing the other maps to be less visited.

And I see that the training grounds got their numbers bumped up...

Code:
Mob count: 16 -> 34 [new_2-3]
Mob count: 16 -> 34 [new_3-3]
Mob count: 16 -> 34 [new_4-3]
Mob count: 16 -> 34 [new_5-3]
So, I need to figure out a way to make the density adjuster not touch the training grounds...
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 27/9/2012, 13:31

That's actually pretty cool. Why is juperos_02 that populated? I thought it was smaller than juperos_01. Huh. Live and learn.

Also, seems like the newbie grounds are counted as dungeons? Is that right? o.o

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 28/9/2012, 09:55

Newbie grounds should be counted as a field map. The distinguishing criteria is whether the map has night-enabled or not.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by alloyc on 5/10/2012, 02:48

is ther a way to hav diff affect a max amount of monsters onscreen support them? like if its
@diff 1: 1% or almost no additional aggro
@diff 10:10% chance to aggro?
20:20
90:90
that way it can b a simple math inside a formula?

@diff 100: all monsters on the entire map aggro towards you? O.O!!!!
i would rly like to kno if this last 1 is technically possible >.>

im all for higher mob density o.o
its currently very undesirable to be a slow walking undefeatable wall of slow
becuz u can only train slower and spend more time doing things =[

sp burns out rather quickly when ur weak >.>
u can make up for it by mobbing like grand cross and desperado
but thats out of the question early on and bashing like 5 times an enemy
leaves u burning way more cash than u can make up for
and the monster dps and aggro kinda forces u 2 do things quickly and run or ur dead

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 5/10/2012, 08:34

Hmm... reading the code, I see that there is no random chance for monsters to support each other unless they are of a different class.

That is, monsters that support each other from the same class will irrevocably search you out when their buddies are attacked.

However, monsters that belong to a different class will support them at a rate of 3*player-count% (so, it's a 3% chance per player every second).

Perhaps I could switch that player-count variable to something that also considers the current difficulty....
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by alloyc on 5/10/2012, 09:40

its very common for monsters of the same class to be on the same map so they all mob u like 3-5 elder willows who happen to hav lvl 5 firebolt =.=;
sumthin closer to a 3% chance for all monsters to support as opposed to 100% would be a huge difference starting out at low diffs and most higher lvl ppl usually hit evrythin in sight when they atk >.>

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 8/10/2012, 12:35

I'll add that. Maybe I should just update the server that is currently running... seeing how updating the rA would take a LONG time, and some of these changes are pretty small.

But then it'll be nightmarish to keep track of these small changes to port them later to rA >.<
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Loki on 8/10/2012, 12:54

Oh? I always thought monster support increases with @diff. Never knew it was 100% all the time.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 8/10/2012, 19:36

alloyc wrote:its very common for monsters of the same class to be on the same map so they all mob u like 3-5 elder willows who happen to hav lvl 5 firebolt =.=;
sumthin closer to a 3% chance for all monsters to support as opposed to 100% would be a huge difference starting out at low diffs and most higher lvl ppl usually hit evrythin in sight when they atk >.>
your build must really, really suck
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Loki on 9/10/2012, 06:58

Vitriol wrote:
alloyc wrote:its very common for monsters of the same class to be on the same map so they all mob u like 3-5 elder willows who happen to hav lvl 5 firebolt =.=;
sumthin closer to a 3% chance for all monsters to support as opposed to 100% would be a huge difference starting out at low diffs and most higher lvl ppl usually hit evrythin in sight when they atk >.>
your build must really, really suck

Have to agree on this one, I make sure I kill fast before I get mobbed.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by alloyc on 9/10/2012, 21:08

if ur build works w/o any gear then i would say its a good build >.> when im fully carded and 100+ on my linker and other classes i do just fine but i shouldn b rushing to my ideal carded equips the moment i start a new char =-=; that feels like cheatin stacking ghost 2 or holy 2/3 right off the bat with a ton of neutral resist etc =.=; evrythin gets easy once u kno wut 2 get but thats pro world lol u shouldn hav to kno that kinda stuff at lvl 10 ._.;;

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 9/10/2012, 21:50

alloyc wrote:if ur build works w/o any gear then i would say its a good build >.> when im fully carded and 100+ on my linker and other classes i do just fine but i shouldn b rushing to my ideal carded equips the moment i start a new char =-=; that feels like cheatin stacking ghost 2 or holy 2/3 right off the bat with a ton of neutral resist etc =.=; evrythin gets easy once u kno wut 2 get but thats pro world lol u shouldn hav to kno that kinda stuff at lvl 10 ._.;;

i have trouble understanding why someone would spend so much time at level 10
also, i have leveled all first classes in training ground past level 30 without 'pro world' gear
you
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doing
something
wrong
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