Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 25/10/2012, 16:28

Loki wrote:Okay Vit, I'm gonna be nice enough to read through your posts. Anything that's just taking up space goes spoiler mode.

I think the general consensus here should be a clean slate for Mou and reworking the game mechanics to fit in with each other Skot.

Worrying about the state of RO in general won't bring Mou anywhere since it's sharing almost the same fate.





Last edited by Vitriol on 26/10/2012, 02:03; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Loki on 26/10/2012, 01:24

Vitriol wrote:
Spoiler:
Loki wrote:Okay Vit, I'm gonna be nice enough to read through your posts. Anything that's just taking up space goes spoiler mode.

I think the general consensus here should be a clean slate for Mou and reworking the game mechanics to fit in with each other Skot.

Worrying about the state of RO in general won't bring Mou anywhere since it's sharing almost the same fate.

We all know you don't.

Failure and Fruit seems genuinely interested in helping Skot, why not give them a chance? They could work on the server and those that are still playing could test it out. Of course we'll keep you updated and you can do you part as well.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 26/10/2012, 02:05

so he does have a sense of humor!

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 29/10/2012, 10:06

It would really help to have a concise list of the things we want to discuss/correct. What I have so far is:

- Stats: in particular, offensive stats are not good enough to be justifiable. And stats that cause you to be weaker as you raise them are hated (this applies to Aspd, Cast, Delay times and walk speed, I guess).

- DMR is too unpredictable to be enjoyed by most people. What should be used instead, though? Or would just adding tables to the webpage to specify how DMR works would be enough? (I am not sure anybody would really follow that)

And that's all I am actually certain about. Sounds like I should start two topics for now? If my interpretation of the above points is correct, I can open the topics myself. Anything that needs correcting so far?
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Loki on 30/10/2012, 12:05

Well those two are the major talking points so might as well start dishing out ideas.

Skot, stop skotlexing.

Loki wrote:Failure and Fruit seems genuinely interested in helping Skot, why not give them a chance? They could work on the server and those that are still playing could test it out. Of course we'll keep you updated and you can do you part as well.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 31/10/2012, 12:12

About that last point, Loki, what can I do, seriously? I mean, the code that is in good shape that can be used by others is sync'ed against eAthena trunk, the code that is being ported to rAthena is far from usable.

Should I just revert to using the eAthena code, and then at some point in the future when I have more time, restart with the migration to rAthena, Loki?
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 31/10/2012, 16:25

Skotlex wrote:It would really help to have a concise list of the things we want to discuss/correct. What I have so far is:

- Stats: in particular, offensive stats are not good enough to be justifiable. And stats that cause you to be weaker as you raise them are hated (this applies to Aspd, Cast, Delay times and walk speed, I guess).

- DMR is too unpredictable to be enjoyed by most people. What should be used instead, though? Or would just adding tables to the webpage to specify how DMR works would be enough? (I am not sure anybody would really follow that)

And that's all I am actually certain about. Sounds like I should start two topics for now? If my interpretation of the above points is correct, I can open the topics myself. Anything that needs correcting so far?
Vitriol wrote:
Failure wrote:
Spoiler:
Ah, a good Skotlex post. Let's get started.



Let's begin by agreeing with Loki: You really need to find time and play again in a newbie's perspective.

Skotlex wrote:I wonder which part of the game mechanics are obscenely complex and obtuse? The only points I can think of are the ones where raising a stat may decrease a parameter (which only applies to Attack Speed and Cast Speed).

Of course you don't find any parts of the game mechanics complex or obtuse: you've been working with them for years, they're inside and out to you. Well, let's start with these four: DMR (everything about it), how stats work, how skills work, how @diff works.

DMR makes no sense because it leads to backwards builds and situations where playing the intuitive setup is not only wrong, but usually the worst setup possible. This blends into the stat issue, leading to cases such as Tophu's gunslinger or Fruit's rapid-fire holy light.

Dexterity is the stat that increases ranged attack damage. Tell me if you see a problem when a powerful gunslinger build only has 35 of it, and 100 in everything else but int (which I imagine he'd put stats into if he still had anything left):
(Thumbnail)

Skills are changed, and I will say you at least did a good job of making some builds and skill spreads more interesting than others. I think it's weakened a bit by giving us extra job points, though. Some skills I'm not entirely sure why were changed to begin with, and I think others have been made worse than in vanilla.


@diff is amusing because it's probably the best-documented feature on the site. You know exactly what it's doing to you and can even choose to happily ignore it if you wanted. My question is: how much does @diff actually add to playing the game? Answer that honestly, now.

While not a direct @diff complaint or relevant at all, I usually end up talking about it when I talk about @diff so I might as well put it here to get it out: Mou can feel too homogenous at times. You can scale mobs to your own level whenever you like, wherever you like, they all drop the similar random healing items and bonus goodies, and there's really no need to hunt a specific mob at all. At least in Vanilla RO you had compelling reasons to go across the map, in Mou it felt much more like "I want a change of scenery for now".


Skotlex wrote:I wouldn't mind that much a stat system where more stats is always better. But the reason these two settings were introduced was because I didn't want new characters attacking/casting at extremely low attack/cast speeds.

Of course, if the stats always make you better, then whatever base speed I decided on would end up being the slowest...

Your fixation on attack speed is a pretty telling part of your personality, Skot. It's no surprise that your deviantart character is a high dex/agi - That's the build that tends to work best in a general sense for any class in Mou. Putting points into strength is a pretty obvious trap if you want to increase damage: it slows your attack speed and overall messes with your DPS and when you hit the cap of 9999 (easy to do without a single point in your primary damage stat), your damage doesn't matter so much as how fast you can dish it out. I've very rarely seen casters with any INT at all, my Soul Linker was Dex/Luk of all things. Can you see how, at given points, stats typically thought of as good to have would be worthless or even hurt your character?


As for a solution to the problem... well, firstly, it's a problem you created yourself when you decided you didn't want people to start by attacking slowly. You could embrace the idea that characters attack slow then get faster as they gain stats, or stick with people starting moderately fast and either... reducing the effects of attack/cast speed gains, or a system where you gradually get slower as you level up, requiring stat points to keep the pace (this strikes me as replacing one ridiculous system for another, though).

Skotlex wrote:Or is the complain also oriented to the DMR side of things? If everything didn't have an extra slot there wouldn't be a need for that. And as far as I thought, the concept is quite simple and the DMR effect is pretty low (not something to really get riled up about). Or is perhaps that just an example of bad documentation?










Let's walk over what DRM is. Honestly, I can't tell you what it is because, as you said so yourself, there's a documentation problem. Nowhere on the site is DRM really explained, except for perhaps one or two pages: the transcript of the newbie zone (which doesn't go into much detail either), and perhaps the original update where it was added, which I can't find either. There is nothing that says anything about it.


What we do know is that it makes a given stat point or character trait less effective than expected the more you dump into it. This works and there isn't much of a problem to it... except for three things. Firstly, the documentation, previously mentioned. Second, knowing how much is going to be reduced is fairly useful for min/maxing and otherwise making suitable builds. We have neither knowledge of how it works nor any real way to simulate/calculate our builds, leading to what vitriol said was the way to make a build: adding a stat point and checking what it did over and over. Guesswork in builds is not what I would call compelling gameplay.


This is made more amusing when you're tweaking with things and noticing abrupt changes because one thing is "worth more" when added to versus another. I suppose all this is made moot if you don't want us min/maxing, which is more of a fool's errand than anything: give someone a pile of numbers and they'll want to play with them.

Oh, and finally, the funniest part is that you set up the problem yourself: you gave everything an extra slot, requiring DRM to exist in the first place.

(There was a third issue I had... but for some reason I've forgotten it. Hm...)

Skotlex wrote:PS: if I focus on the details rather than the whole, that might be because it's actually easier to do something about things in particular, rather than telling me the solution is to change everything D:'
But you honestly, truly want to know what I think the best solution would be?



Do exactly that. Change everything. Go back to vanilla RO. Implement the stat changes you want, the @diff system you want, the DMR you want, so on so forth. It'd be an opportunity to, instead of making changes quickly for player complaints, slowly add the features so they complement and play off each other. Ask the questions about how the pieces work as a whole: "What sort of stat system would most strongly benefit from points being weaker the more you add to them? What degree of scaling with and without DMR would lead players to intuitively pick the stronger options? How do the resulting builds handle at various extremes of the @diff system?"

Yes, it'd be a massive pain and take a long time and a lot of work, but so is adjusting things piecemeal. At least with a restart (what good timing, with the switch to rA and all) we could ensure a robust, synergistic system instead of individual mechanics that happen to bump into each other.

If you'd rather stick with the trees instead of the forest, though, why not choose a single subject for all of us to give our collective input on: how it works and how it doesn't, what it gives to the game, and so on? It might help you focus better on what needs to be done, instead of all of us endlessly shouting to change everything. We could do this for every custom change there is, frankly.

thats a heck of a lot of work to do.(i mean just reading the damn thing)
mind providing an executive report? or should we hire a different attorney?










i told you so!
i told you so!
i told you so!
i told you so!
i told you so!

don't say that i didn't tell you
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by RiketzKarlom on 28/4/2013, 09:10

New player, just signed up, and read this entire thread. Been playing since iRO Beta, so I guess that lumps me into the veteran category.

Your main draws are :
Full party EXP share : Encouraging large parties is much more effective if you don't contain it in 1 small screen. I have seen this feature bring servers from nothing to insane levels of popularity. Boosting the level gap and making sure that the member search on control panel is a prominent front page feature will do wonders.

Safe Refine : This is amazing and should not be touched. Another huge draw that a vast majority of players prefer. The failure rate being the same but without destroying the gear in question is absolutely perfect. Considering how much gear people go through re-rolling stat gems on gear makes this a more important feature than ever.

Skill / Job Progression Changes : Crusaders should have 1h Quicken,
Knights should have Spear Quicken. The fact that Knight is the only class with spear-exclusive skills has shown itself to be a glaring Gravity oversight since they first introduced 2-2 classes. I'd even go so far to say making Spear Mastery a Swordsman skill and 2h Sword Mastery a Knight skill would be infinitely more logical.

Support and giant mob swarms are the problem, along with stats being a double edged sword for any logic minded gamer are your absolute biggest problems, not @diff

Rogue needs something to either increase Double Attack activation rate, melee aspd, or melee power, to counter Gravity's constant campaign against players who want to use anything other than a Bow + Plaguerize.

If this server is going to go for casual PvM, and it's what the vast majority of RO1 players want and are used to, then the best possible change you could make would be the elimination of melee damage reflect on mobs in all of the known end-game farming areas. If your tag line became "MouRO : Where Thor Volcano welcomes all classes" people might start showing up.

That's my effort/advice in a nutshell. If you made even half of these changes, you'd have far less people rage quitting in the first 10 minutes.


Last edited by RiketzKarlom on 28/4/2013, 09:16; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Elaborating on some points.)

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Lothar Axe on 28/4/2013, 12:39

Whoa, so something was actually discussed after I left.
Thing is, we have Skotlex, we have Interested Developers (Fruit, Failure), and we have testers (Me, Loki, everyone else I guess). We got a team! We are just lacking decisions and organization. First thing would be answering Skotlex's last question for Loki, then waiting for him to show up again, then organizing what must be done in topics, then do eet.

@RiketzKarlom
Would you help us with this? I'm sure that your suggested changes have a meaning and are doable, also, pointing MouRO's strong points will help a lot to separate what to touch and what to nevah touch.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by RiketzKarlom on 28/4/2013, 12:56

Lothar Axe wrote:Whoa, so something was actually discussed after I left.
Thing is, we have Skotlex, we have Interested Developers (Fruit, Failure), and we have testers (Me, Loki, everyone else I guess). We got a team! We are just lacking decisions and organization. First thing would be answering Skotlex's last question for Loki, then waiting for him to show up again, then organizing what must be done in topics, then do eet.

@RiketzKarlom
Would you help us with this? I'm sure that your suggested changes have a meaning and are doable, also, pointing MouRO's strong points will help a lot to separate what to touch and what to nevah touch.
Thank you for acknowledging my post, and for the positive reception. Yes, my suggestions are based around everything I've seen successful servers offer, positive and negative comments from users of this server on RMS over time, and repeated observations of RO1 in general over the years, made by people who legitimately enjoy the game. It has been my experience that the players who sit around towns and scowl/complain ultimately end up as forum trolls, then wind up gone. There is absolutely no need to appease those whiners and nay-sayers, and not being able to distinguish them from your average player has led plenty of devs down bad roads.
I'm not so sure how great I'd be at implementation of these changes, but I can do alright on the testing/advertising front. Although, I've written a little bit of script in some romhacking, (FF6, skyrim modding) I'm just going to assume that RO1 code looks like absolute moonspeak.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Rogem on 28/4/2013, 14:26

You need to add Stone Curse to the mob skill removal list. That thing kills you if you're alone without a heal-equipped pet.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 28/4/2013, 22:47

RiketzKarlom wrote:just signed up, and read this entire thread.


Laughing thanks for the laughs
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by RiketzKarlom on 29/4/2013, 02:09

Vitriol wrote: Laughing thanks for the laughs
Glad to provide something, which seems to be more than you can say, outside of gifs and shooting down ideas.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 29/4/2013, 10:52

RiketzKarlom wrote:
Vitriol wrote: Laughing thanks for the laughs
Glad to provide something, which seems to be more than you can say, outside of gifs and shooting down ideas.
Ouch.

On a related note, why the fuck haven't you blocked Vitriol yet? Add him to your enemies list, stat.

The RO1 private server code is like a forest, but instead of animals there are Great Old Ones and instead of trees there are more Great Old Ones. Skotlex braved that armed with nothing but his Necronomicon - he returned, but his sanity did not. Unfortunately, since he's hacking the hacks, either his code is an even more tangled mess than regular eAthena or he's just a couple steps removed from God.

Also, about Stone Curse, IIRC that first part still allows item usage if you're healing mainly via Potion Pitcher or, god forbid, Heal. So just keep Mastelas or something in an empty hotkey slot and spam those, and Stone Curse's threat goes down to a slightly buffed Freeze. o/

That or deck yourself out in Undead armor, which is still 100% here (unlike every other status reduction/immunity card).

EDIT :
Skill / Job Progression Changes : Crusaders should have 1h Quicken,
Knights
should have Spear Quicken. The fact that Knight is the only class with
spear-exclusive skills has shown itself to be a glaring Gravity
oversight since they first introduced 2-2 classes.
I agree with pretty much everything on your post (Rogues are still better melee characters than un-EDP'd Assassins, though) except this. Surprisingly, there's some thought behind this! In Vanilla, Knights use 1H Spears for burst/AoE damage or 2H Swords for DPS. Crusaders use 1H Swords for burst/AoE damage or 2H Spears for DPS - Holy Cross is their "spear-exclusive" skill, hitting at a frankly ridiculous 900% when you use it with a 2H Spear.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by RiketzKarlom on 29/4/2013, 11:48

Fruit Pie~ wrote:On a related note, why the fuck haven't you blocked Vitriol yet? Add him to your enemies list, stat.
Done, and a valid question I could only answer with derp.

Fruit Pie~ wrote:The RO1 private server code is like a forest, but instead of animals there are Great Old Ones and instead of trees there are more Great Old Ones. Skotlex braved that armed with nothing but his Necronomicon - he returned, but his sanity did not. Unfortunately, since he's hacking the hacks, either his code is an even more tangled mess than regular eAthena or he's just a couple steps removed from God.

I agree with pretty much everything on your post (Rogues are still better melee characters than un-EDP'd Assassins, though) except this. Surprisingly, there's some thought behind this! In Vanilla, Knights use 1H Spears for burst/AoE damage or 2H Swords for DPS. Crusaders use 1H Swords for burst/AoE damage or 2H Spears for DPS - Holy Cross is their "spear-exclusive" skill, hitting at a frankly ridiculous 900% when you use it with a 2H Spear.
Aye, and that damage % instead being matched to 600% on 1h Swords or Daggers would still allow either option to be either streamlined. To go into greater depth, the intention being 1h Sword/Dagger DPS, preferably with an aspd-related cooldown, and that 900% being contained in a more bursty DPS with Spears (I would allow 1h Spears with this change, due to the aspd loss from Spear Quicken's absense). One Handed Quicken would allow Bash Stun to be achieved in a more timely fashion, followed by either Holy Cross for single target DPS, Grand Cross for crowd control with Provoke, or a guaranteed hit during the stun duration with any given Shield skill. The idea behind 1h spears reaping Holy Cross's benefit is clearly to not lock players out of their shield in either playstyle, that would be a kick in the teeth with all the extra skill points this server offers.
As far as Knights are concerned, being able to Pierce at a higher aspd while maintaining even a classic high def/vit 1h Spear build allows the player to resist nastier status effects like Bleeding while still being able to maintain enough DPS to level in a timely fashion. This small series of changes sounds like more trouble than it's worth, at first glance, but allows the Swordsman second jobs to return to what they were originally intended to be : high HP, stun causing crowd control that doubled over as decent DPS, able to resist status effects that Steel Body + Cure could not alleviate.

Shields certainly make your point about melee Rogue valid, along with a lot of the already existing skill changes.


Last edited by RiketzKarlom on 29/4/2013, 12:11; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Fixing up really confusing wording.)

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Lothar Axe on 29/4/2013, 12:31

... why not just give Spear Mastery and One-hand-quicken to Swordsman (first class)? It wont change a shit.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by RiketzKarlom on 29/4/2013, 14:59

Lothar Axe wrote:... why not just give Spear Mastery and One-hand-quicken to Swordsman (first class)? It wont change a shit.
That's more or less what I was suggesting, but my way makes Crusader the 1h specialist, Knight the 2h specialist, allows either a solid fighting style with Spears 1h or 2h to an extent, and keeps the number of skill points required for both classes the same. Really, the only thing missing is a 2h spear damage boost on some Knight skills. Looking at Spear Boomerang, Brandish Spear, and Spiral Pierce, specifically.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 30/4/2013, 00:47

Fruit Pie~ wrote:

On a related note, why the fuck haven't you blocked Vitriol yet? Add him to your enemies list, stat.

are you sure? are you sure you don't wanna catch a ride on the fun train? the off-the-rails non-stop action funtrain?








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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 30/4/2013, 23:59

Aye... discussion, and recent ones, too.

I am certainly at a point in time where I am willing to accept help from others. I am just curious on what the base should be.

MouRO is currently synced to eA trunk which is... dead. Attempting to work on that before migrating to another more recent server would be nuts.

However, one thing that could be done is to just sync to the mob database and the item/npcs, and forget the actual rAthena code.

However, what would be lost that route, is that now I'd have to port the other way around: rather than Mou to rA, I would have to port third classes from rA to Mou x_x; I am not sure which one would be better.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by RiketzKarlom on 1/5/2013, 18:39

It's a tough decision, but consider that the most popular servers, even running Renewal/rAthena keep 3rd jobs locked out. Though, the incredibly tedious and daunting transition's likely still worth it in the long run.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 7/5/2013, 16:26

Worth it how? The long run for this game doesn't look very bright.

I can only expect less and less people who'll want to play RO as time passes. My cousin the other day was explaining that RO2 was free to play. I am not really motivated by that game, but if you like RO, why wouldn't you go for RO2? And if you are nostalgic about RO1, then what motivation would there be for a custom server, which is different from what your fond memories loved?

Meh, okay, I am just demotivating myself here. I should talk to Playtester some more and see what are the outlooks for RO emulators.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 7/5/2013, 22:23

RO2 isn't a bad game, but it's not RO. Its gameplay does not resemble RO in any way, shape or form. RO is a sort of oldschool MMORPG that will never come back, and RO2 just sealed RO's coffin, basically, so playing RO right now is a "last chance to see it" thing.

Also, the nostalgia thing is the whole reason nobody plays here, I suppose. People just want RO the way they remember it, which is also why they adamantly refuse to level in Metalings and, instead, tackle Myst Cases. Yeah, Myst Cases were ALL the rage back in Ep 9, but guys, uh... Metalings? Yeah? No? Okay, no.

The RO community is a strange and generally terrible beast. You check RateMyServer too, you know it is.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by bombxhead on 8/5/2013, 06:28

Skotlex wrote:My cousin the other day was explaining that RO2 was free to play. I am not really motivated by that game, but if you like RO, why wouldn't you go for RO2? And if you are nostalgic about RO1, then what motivation would there be for a custom server, which is different from what your fond memories loved?

[ Just saying something that will have no contribution to the whole topic whatsoever, but IP block won't allow me to play RO2. There's probably some private servers around but I don't want to play them for some random reason. Also, I like the RO1 sprites. ]
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by to3phu on 9/5/2013, 16:56

You can still play Ro2 isometric-ish just zoom out! Lol
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by bombxhead on 12/5/2013, 06:55

[ So they took off the IP block for my country. I played a bit but I really didn't like it =_x I prefer RO1 ]
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Bard on 12/5/2013, 14:39

RO2 is a bad joke, it isn't Ragnarok at all. Several features and names seems to be based on RO, we see monks using 'Guillhotine Fist' and whatnot, but once you pick up information on your spells and see things like 'Threat', 'Combo Points' and even some 'Shield Wall' style spells you know you're playing a poor attempt at WoW.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 12/5/2013, 15:07

It's a surprisingly solid take on WoW, though. You can easily "fix" RO2 by just making it move twice as fast and cutting the cooldowns a bit.

EDIT : What I'm getting at here is MouRO2. Yes? No?

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Lothar Axe on 12/5/2013, 16:54

MouRO2? It wont fix RO2 if it keeps the "Let's not add/modify content" rule. We will need 3D designers to fix those lame outfits, skill animations and movement animations from playable characters, for example.
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Lothar Axe

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Join date : 2012-08-25
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

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