Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 11/10/2012, 02:53

Fruit Pie~ wrote:
Really, it's good to see you're apparently trying not to do your crappy gimmick trolling act here, but I think that would be more on-topic here than - how did I call it again? - "go bot or get out".
its not a gimmick, honey


its a way of life

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 11/10/2012, 02:54

You told him to fix his build, but didn't provide any meaningful help with that (which Tofu actually sort of did - you pretty much told him "fuck off and l2p").

You also told him to bot because you love that dumb band-aid solution to the server's PVE problems, despite the fact it doesn't fix anything and is out of place in this specific thread.

Also, the manual tells you about @option in like one or two lines and @info once in that same hidden page as "DMR". Those two commands (much like the manual) also don't tell you anything about actual in-game things like the aforementioned DMR or which skill is magic/physical/hybrid, so you're still left dumbfounded as your percentages increase (or sometimes decrease) seemingly at random or things have no effect when they should have or that the manual has conflicting information.

Mou has a serious lack of documentation and anyone who has ever read the site and played the game at any point in their lives knows that. If the site had great info, sure, I'd agree that everyone should read it before playing. If the information was available in-game and in clear terms, that'd be even better!

Hell, give me the info, I'll gladly write a detailed guide on it or make a wiki or whatever - this situation does not exist due to lack of help. In fact, some of the website was actually written by the old forums people (also this is a good time to mention you nuked the old forums), including the exceptionally well-hidden newbie grounds info page.

And about that implication he should shut up about server suggestions in the server suggestion forum, let's see!
realistically: if he wants an easier game anytime soon, skot will not do it for him.
skot is working on his thesis => he will not be able to make any overhauls to the gameplay anytime soon its pretty damn obvious isnt it?
thats a pretty good reason to believe that he will be long gone by the time skot even starts working on the game mechanics
and again, how useful is it to tell him that the entire system needs to be revamped? what will he even do with that information?
and meanwhile you are talking about the far future (i doubt that he will stick around long enough for that anyhow) when skot finally has time to work on the server (fundamental game design), and which is outside the scope of this thread
all of your suggestions have been made repeatedly over the past year, and no changes have been made. so you can continue making the same suggestions, but they are not very useful to newbs unless somebody actually implements these suggestions.
In sum, the entire last half of your posts that weren't insults were you telling us we should stop making suggestions because, paraphrasing your eloquent posting : "DURR GUYS SKOT NO MAKE CHANGE".

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 11/10/2012, 02:58

you do not need to know formulas for dmr. you just need @option to track the changes

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 11/10/2012, 03:01

Fruit Pie~ wrote:
And about that implication he should shut up about server suggestions in the server suggestion forum, let's see!
realistically: if he wants an easier game anytime soon, skot will not do it for him.
skot is working on his thesis => he will not be able to make any overhauls to the gameplay anytime soon its pretty damn obvious isnt it?
thats a pretty good reason to believe that he will be long gone by the time skot even starts working on the game mechanics
and again, how useful is it to tell him that the entire system needs to be revamped? what will he even do with that information?
and meanwhile you are talking about the far future (i doubt that he will stick around long enough for that anyhow) when skot finally has time to work on the server (fundamental game design), and which is outside the scope of this thread
all of your suggestions have been made repeatedly over the past year, and no changes have been made. so you can continue making the same suggestions, but they are not very useful to newbs unless somebody actually implements these suggestions.
In sum, the entire last half of your posts that weren't insults were you telling us we should stop making suggestions because, paraphrasing your eloquent posting : "DURR GUYS SKOT NO MAKE CHANGE".
nope. all those quote were justifying why i made realistic suggestions, and explaining why your overhaul suggestions were not useful to this one particular person. the last quote in particular, exemplifies this. some of these quotes were actually written to defend my suggestion to use bots. others were to show how my suggestions are actually more useful than your suggestions, which involve waiting for over a year
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Fruit Pie~ on 11/10/2012, 03:05

Vitriol wrote:you do not need to know formulas for dmr. you just need @option to track the changes
You need it to min-max, and you keep associating min-maxing with making a build - which is actually true of Vanilla RO.

The thing with Vanilla is that it's relatively intuitive (increasing a stat gives you something, every 10 round points most stats do bonus stuff), doesn't outright penalize you for making a build mistake (other than having a subpar build, of course) and the effects of gear and stats are well-documented, apply to all situations equally (ie your Thara Frog shield isn't worth less defense if you have a Feather Beret) and are easy to visualize while making your build.

MouRO has to either move away from that system and have builds be more of an everything goes add-on to your basic capabilities or actually document that stuff, because it's more complicated than Vanilla but also less documented. And that's the crux of the issue. To make a build, you need to make informed decisions, which is almost impossible with how Mou works and how bare bones/outdated the documentation it is.

EDIT : You made a realistic suggestion, but also outside of the scope of these forums. Also relatively useless compared to Tofu's guide because not only was it not a server suggestion, it wasn't helpful - great, I got this botting program I had to Google for and am not sure if it's malware! How do I config it for Mou? What do I do? Is this "Vitriol" person saying his botting mantra just for the sake of saying it?

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Loki on 11/10/2012, 07:27

Meh, its useless arguing with someone who thinks he's a step above everyone Fruit. Most of his suggestions are vague and based on what he did to play Mou.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 11/10/2012, 09:33

Failure has a point there (meaning last page). Vitriol you don't get to be offensive/insult people you don't even know. Do that again and you get a nice week ban.

Anyway, raising an acolyte to become a monk, I thought the suggested method was to use Holy Light? Even with 1 int, that should have gotten anybody through the training grounds with ease enough.

Perhaps the suggestion to use Holy Light (given by the super novice NPC before going into the training grounds) was not noticed?

I thought that most of the information given in the training grounds still applies today. The main mechanics have not changed, and as far as I remember, I do update the NPCs whenever there is a relevant change. Of course, it'd help if the contents were available online for reading them while out of the game...
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Failure on 11/10/2012, 13:50

Skotlex wrote:Failure has a point there (meaning last page). Vitriol you don't get to be offensive/insult people you don't even know. Do that again and you get a nice week ban.

Anyway, raising an acolyte to become a monk, I thought the suggested method was to use Holy Light? Even with 1 int, that should have gotten anybody through the training grounds with ease enough.

Perhaps the suggestion to use Holy Light (given by the super novice NPC before going into the training grounds) was not noticed?

I thought that most of the information given in the training grounds still applies today. The main mechanics have not changed, and as far as I remember, I do update the NPCs whenever there is a relevant change. Of course, it'd help if the contents were available online for reading them while out of the game...


Fruit and I have named this sort of post after you, the typical creator of them. When somebody fails to notice the bigger issues and instead pokes at the trees in the forest, we call it "Skotlexing [one's way out of it]".

You addressed Vitriol's behavior, holy light, and training ground information. That's super, mind sharing your thoughts on...
- The overall consensus that the mechanics are obscenely complex and obtuse without actually giving gameplay extra depth.
- Web-site documentation that's both outdated and untrue on basics such as stats (again, there is only ONE page on the site that teaches DMR: the transcript of training ground dialogue. And it doesn't even teach it that well at all).

Which is, you know, what the last five pages were debating about, but you skotlexed your way past it all, as usual.

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 11/10/2012, 16:07

Skotlex wrote:Failure has a point there (meaning last page). Vitriol you don't get to be offensive/insult people you don't even know. Do that again and you get a nice week ban.
you mean that i get a vacation from this village of buffoons?


Last edited by Vitriol on 11/10/2012, 16:15; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 11/10/2012, 16:09


but seriously, go play wow.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Lothar Axe on 11/10/2012, 20:45

Vitriol wrote:
but seriously, go play wow.
No.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 11/10/2012, 22:07

Lothar Axe wrote:
Vitriol wrote:
but seriously, go play wow.
No.
ooooh how clever. your wit never ceases to amaze me
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Lothar Axe on 11/10/2012, 22:13

Vitriol wrote:ooooh how clever. your wit never ceases to amaze me
Thanks.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 12/10/2012, 03:24

Fruit Pie~ wrote:also this is a good time to mention you nuked the old forums
what a preposterous notion.


im offended that you would accuse me of such a thing.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 12/10/2012, 10:18

Vitriol wrote:
Skotlex wrote:Failure has a point there (meaning last page). Vitriol you don't get to be offensive/insult people you don't even know. Do that again and you get a nice week ban.
you mean that i get a vacation from this village of buffoons?

Well, nobody is forcing you to stay. You could take vacations any time you wanted... ¬_¬'
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 12/10/2012, 16:08

my official job title is "buffoon tamer," and this is the most profitable place to ply my trade; i must stay in order to make a living.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Loki on 14/10/2012, 07:53

The way I see it, you're the one being tamed.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 14/10/2012, 18:07

suuuuuureee
ill just refer you to this post:
Vitriol wrote:

ooooh how clever. your wit never ceases to amaze me
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Loki on 15/10/2012, 04:36

Naw, I'm being serious. Compared to the old forums, you've turned cute here.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 15/10/2012, 06:17

Loki wrote:Naw, I'm being serious. Compared to the old forums, you've turned cute here.

i've always been cute, youre just too blind to notice whats right in front of you



btw, its not that easy to bait me into posting fisting and beastiality. if wanna see more of that, youre gonna have to google for it (or wait for hydro to post the beasties)

nice try though, cheers
my second mouro anniversary was sometime during the summer. heres to another 2 years.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 15/10/2012, 14:19

Hell, if MouRO is still around in two more years... *shrugs*

Just how outdated must a game be before people decide to move on? Razz The graphics are quite dated already.

Fortunately, things like the music never get outdated since good music has existed since the 16-bit era. Though from what I remember, many of the RO players I've met in the past don't actually like RO's soundtrack. Razz
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Loki on 15/10/2012, 15:04

Skotlex wrote:Though from what I remember, many of the RO players I've met in the past don't actually like RO's soundtrack. Razz
Let me kill them.
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Lothar Axe on 15/10/2012, 15:38

Should we all just move on to Guild Wars II?
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by to3phu on 15/10/2012, 23:31

Skotlex wrote:Hell, if MouRO is still around in two more years... *shrugs*

Just how outdated must a game be before people decide to move on? Razz The graphics are quite dated already.

Fortunately, things like the music never get outdated since good music has existed since the 16-bit era. Though from what I remember, many of the RO players I've met in the past don't actually like RO's soundtrack. Razz

People still play D2, not to mention reddit has it's own server
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 16/10/2012, 14:17

I played D2 extensively for five years before I burned out. And that's when I found RO. :V

Someday, when I get time for an MMORPG again, I'll probably do GW2. Though, it might be a long time before that. The thing I miss the most from playing in an MMORPG is meeting random people and making new acquaintances. Strangely enough, I now do that in other online sites, no need to play a game as well (though there is a certain charm in having a game that also has a social aspect to it).
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 20/10/2012, 05:08

Failure wrote:
Skotlex wrote:Failure has a point there (meaning last page). Vitriol you don't get to be offensive/insult people you don't even know. Do that again and you get a nice week ban.

Anyway, raising an acolyte to become a monk, I thought the suggested method was to use Holy Light? Even with 1 int, that should have gotten anybody through the training grounds with ease enough.

Perhaps the suggestion to use Holy Light (given by the super novice NPC before going into the training grounds) was not noticed?

I thought that most of the information given in the training grounds still applies today. The main mechanics have not changed, and as far as I remember, I do update the NPCs whenever there is a relevant change. Of course, it'd help if the contents were available online for reading them while out of the game...


Fruit and I have named this sort of post after you, the typical creator of them. When somebody fails to notice the bigger issues and instead pokes at the trees in the forest, we call it "Skotlexing [one's way out of it]".

You addressed Vitriol's behavior, holy light, and training ground information. That's super, mind sharing your thoughts on...
- The overall consensus that the mechanics are obscenely complex and obtuse without actually giving gameplay extra depth.
- Web-site documentation that's both outdated and untrue on basics such as stats (again, there is only ONE page on the site that teaches DMR: the transcript of training ground dialogue. And it doesn't even teach it that well at all).

Which is, you know, what the last five pages were debating about, but you skotlexed your way past it all, as usual.
oops, he did it again
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Skotlex on 23/10/2012, 09:08

Dammit, it looks like I somehow missed Failure's last post. I blame you Vitriol and your distracting images all over the place T_T'

I wonder which part of the game mechanics are obscenely complex and obtuse? The only points I can think of are the ones where raising a stat may decrease a parameter (which only applies to Attack Speed and Cast Speed).

I wouldn't mind that much a stat system where more stats is always better. But the reason these two settings were introduced was because I didn't want new characters attacking/casting at extremely low attack/cast speeds.

Of course, if the stats always make you better, then whatever base speed I decided on would end up being the slowest...

Do you guys think it would be preferable to have a system where the base speed is "decently nice" and you need a heck of a lot of stat points (think 250~300) to reach the max? (which would be the sort of max you can see in the @option setting)

Or is the complain also oriented to the DMR side of things? If everything didn't have an extra slot there wouldn't be a need for that. And as far as I thought, the concept is quite simple and the DMR effect is pretty low (not something to really get riled up about). Or is perhaps that just an example of bad documentation?

I am sorry if it seemed like I was just weaselling my way out of changing anything. I'd say it was more a case of failing to understand what the gripe was, thus not seeing enough incentive to change it :S

PS: if I focus on the details rather than the whole, that might be because it's actually easier to do something about things in particular, rather than telling me the solution is to change everything D:'
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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

Post by Vitriol on 23/10/2012, 17:21

Skotlex wrote:Dammit, it looks like I somehow missed Failure's last post. I blame you Vitriol and your distracting images all over the place T_T'

I wonder which part of the game mechanics are obscenely complex and obtuse? The only points I can think of are the ones where raising a stat may decrease a parameter (which only applies to Attack Speed and Cast Speed).

I wouldn't mind that much a stat system where more stats is always better. But the reason these two settings were introduced was because I didn't want new characters attacking/casting at extremely low attack/cast speeds.

Of course, if the stats always make you better, then whatever base speed I decided on would end up being the slowest...

Do you guys think it would be preferable to have a system where the base speed is "decently nice" and you need a heck of a lot of stat points (think 250~300) to reach the max? (which would be the sort of max you can see in the @option setting)

Or is the complain also oriented to the DMR side of things? If everything didn't have an extra slot there wouldn't be a need for that. And as far as I thought, the concept is quite simple and the DMR effect is pretty low (not something to really get riled up about). Or is perhaps that just an example of bad documentation?

I am sorry if it seemed like I was just weaselling my way out of changing anything. I'd say it was more a case of failing to understand what the gripe was, thus not seeing enough incentive to change it :S

PS: if I focus on the details rather than the whole, that might be because it's actually easier to do something about things in particular, rather than telling me the solution is to change everything D:'
distracting images?
don't you mean beautiful and artistic self-portraits?

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Re: Regarding @diff, casualness, documentation, etc...

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