One hundred thousand posts!!

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Skotlex on 16/7/2013, 17:07

;_;

I think we can forget a migration to rAthena for... a long time now. While trying to update my copy of rAthena, so that I could test the client, it seems I had instead wiped out the progress I had in migrating Mou to rAthena.... that's really, really, really annoying.

It seems like Mou will have to stick to a patched up version of eAthena that merely supports newer packets, without supporting any newer features. But I guess... that's good enough?

Sigh.

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by to3phu on 16/7/2013, 18:21

If there's new item I don't mind~

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Lothar Axe on 16/7/2013, 20:30

What about 3rds!!! (Nah, I gave up already).

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Skotlex on 17/7/2013, 17:53

Well, fortunately I remembered I had a backup of my system on an external HD, so I could restore the mess up I had Surprised

Unfortunately, today has been a rather annoyingly busy day, so I haven't yet even began work D:' Though, I have made progress with hexing a new client. I have decided to stick to the 2013-03-20e which is supported by rA, and is also dated before the client available at RMS, that way people don't need to patch anything to play.

However, one thing I learned is that I need to include every single lua file in the grfs, as I can't just rely on the official ones as they could change before a new client is available.

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Bard on 19/7/2013, 10:48


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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Skotlex on 19/7/2013, 14:48

Oh man... yesterday vanished. I haven't been sleeping well all week (short version: I have to go to bed at 22:30, and wake up at 06:00, but my dear brother will not go to bed before 02:00, and usually keeps doing stuff at a loud enough volume that I can tell, and I can't sleep). After a whole week of that, I finally crashed yesterday with a pretty bad headache which kept me in bed all day long @_@

Well, that was a day wasted without time for progress. Today I have some things to do, but at least I added to3phu as a moderator.

Now, I hope that won't mean that Tofu will stop coming to the forums <_<'

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by to3phu on 19/7/2013, 16:44

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by bombxhead on 19/7/2013, 18:35

[ tophu, take out the # in [....]#t=232s[....] and change it to & [[ [....]&t=232s[....] ]] otherwise it may not work for one [retarded] reason or another ]
[ I have the slighly feeling that the forums are sortof [more] lively ]
[ also, so long as the third classed get out of the theory part I'm fine ]

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Last edited by bombxhead on 19/7/2013, 19:26; edited 1 time in total
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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by to3phu on 19/7/2013, 19:20

Oh well, those sprite looks pretty neat though 

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by bombxhead on 19/7/2013, 19:30

[ although, skot, what the fuck you thing you are doing sleeping [or trying to] more than half a hour per day? ]
[ YOU ARE OUR SLAVE. You don't eat, sleep, drink, breathe, work [except on mouRO related stuff] glasses, study and whatever else unless we give you permission to do so. Or unless you take out just the skotapples, that's fine too ]

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Vitriol on 20/7/2013, 00:42

bombxhead wrote:[ although, skot, what the fuck you thing you are doing sleeping [or trying to] more than half a hour per day? ]
[ YOU ARE OUR SLAVE. You don't eat, sleep, drink, breathe, work [except on mouRO related stuff] glasses, study and whatever else unless we give you permission to do so. Or unless you take out just the skotapples, that's fine too ]

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 bombxhead Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation 

 

i'm so proud of you Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation 

this brings tears to my eyes
like a mama troll as she watches her troll-ling slaughter his first meal!
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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Vitriol on 20/7/2013, 01:56

Skotlex wrote:;_;

I think we can forget a migration to rAthena for... a long time now. While trying to update my copy of rAthena, so that I could test the client, it seems I had instead wiped out the progress I had in migrating Mou to rAthena.... that's really, really, really annoying.

It seems like Mou will have to stick to a patched up version of eAthena that merely supports newer packets, without supporting any newer features. But I guess... that's good enough?

Sigh.

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skot, if you implement thirds, i will make public party heal-slave bots that stay online 24/7 and can be commanded by anybody. and i will write a guide about how to use them. hear that? i will actually contribute to the damn server. just implement thirds dammit bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce
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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Skotlex on 20/7/2013, 16:55

Contribute with bots? That's so.... thoughtful of you, Vitriol Razz

Seriously, migrating the map server will take time, but that's not the worst. The most significant problem I see with third classes is that, if I leave their skills as they are, most of them will hit the damage cap very easily... and I don't want to go on a skill-modifying spree again :S

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Lothar Axe on 20/7/2013, 18:16

There's no 3rds without skill-modifying spree, that's for sure.

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by khuongduy004 on 20/7/2013, 19:55

You can just reduce the modifiers to 1/5 or so and see what happens first, then we can slowly modify them again overtime. Because even if you try to modify them all at once, I'm pretty sure there would still be skills hitting damage cap and are spammable enough anyway.

Actually, on the other hand, when it comes to spamming skills, 3rd classes in general can't do it as well as trans classes, as most of their skills have "cooldown" instead of "after cast delay", and cooldown cannot be reduced by anymean. So even if 1 or 2 skills can hit damage cap easily, but they have a long-enough cooldown, I think it will still force people to rotate different skills around and cannot hit max damage all the time like some of the trans classes.

Heck, I really think, if you wanted people to "ultilize all skills in battle", you should have added a cooldown to most original skills in the first place, instead of just revamping them O_O

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Lothar Axe on 20/7/2013, 21:12

khuongduy004 wrote:Heck, I really think, if you wanted people to "ultilize all skills in battle", you should have added a cooldown to most original skills in the first place, instead of just revamping them O_O

With respect, I think cooldown is a dumb way to balance skills in a game. Cause it's annoying.
I dont get really excited with "Timer Strategy", it feels dumb and annoying (already said that), maybe I liked something similar with Healing Druid in WoW WOTLK, but it was actually dinamic somehow... I cant imagine that in Ragnarok, not without serious skill changes (changing/adding effects).
Ragnarok is a spam skill game, so you use your main skill to spam, and other skills just to fix problems that are temporarily turning your spamming into something inefficient or suicide-like.
You may have one spamming skill for each mob (like element stuff), but mostly you will finish it off with a single thing if there's nothing in the way. Why cooldown the shit that should save you / make your life easier? Cause the game gets easier? That's fucking gameplay! You do something right, you're rewarded for doing so! I dont want the game to limit my tools, It's already hard enough to use them!
Not only that, giving some skills cooldown means you cant choose them as your main spamming skill, that limits build/gameplay customization.

Well... that's it I guess: "Mimimi, I dont agree with you".
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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Bard on 21/7/2013, 00:09

Skotlex wrote:Contribute with bots? That's so.... thoughtful of you, Vitriol Razz

Seriously, migrating the map server will take time, but that's not the worst. The most significant problem I see with third classes is that, if I leave their skills as they are, most of them will hit the damage cap very easily... and I don't want to go on a skill-modifying spree again :S

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Are you going with them being 3rd jobs or being alternative trans 2nd?

Also Best option would probably be take skills with similar concepts and make the damage/effects similar. Severe Rainstorm damage = LoV damage, for example. If changes are needed edit them later.


khuong wrote:Actually, on the other hand, when it comes to spamming skills, 3rd classes in general can't do it as well as trans classes, as most of their skills have "cooldown" instead of "after cast delay", and cooldown cannot be reduced by anymean. So even if 1 or 2 skills can hit damage cap easily, but they have a long-enough cooldown, I think it will still force people to rotate different skills around and cannot hit max damage all the time like some of the trans classes.

Actually the cooldown can be reduced, and it leads to some pretty nasty effects
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WrXVNEoNq0

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by khuongduy004 on 21/7/2013, 01:55

Lothar Axe wrote:With respect, I think cooldown is a dumb way to balance skills in a game. Cause it's annoying.
I dont get really excited with "Timer Strategy", it feels dumb and annoying (already said that), maybe I liked something similar with Healing Druid in WoW WOTLK, but it was actually dinamic somehow... I cant imagine that in Ragnarok, not without serious skill changes (changing/adding effects).
Ragnarok is a spam skill game, so you use your main skill to spam, and other skills just to fix problems that are temporarily turning your spamming into something inefficient or suicide-like.
You may have one spamming skill for each mob (like element stuff), but mostly you will finish it off with a single thing if there's nothing in the way. Why cooldown the shit that should save you / make your life easier? Cause the game gets easier? That's fucking gameplay! You do something right, you're rewarded for doing so! I dont want the game to limit my tools, It's already hard enough to use them!
Not only that, giving some skills cooldown means you cant choose them as your main spamming skill, that limits build/gameplay customization.

I'm not talking about too-long cooldown, just something like 2-4s cooldown on spam skills like Bash for knight for example, so you can't spam it at the speed of 3 hits per sec, and it will force you to fill in that 2s with stuffs like Magnum Break, Bowling Bash, etc. So it will be like, you still have 1 or 2 main skills that are spammable enough with around 2s cooldown (yet not as spammable as they are now), and you have skills with much better skill modifiers that have longer cooldown (like 10-15s).

Bard wrote:Actually the cooldown can be reduced, and it leads to some pretty nasty effects

That was Reading Spellbook, the only spell that allows total bypassing of cooldown. Otherwise, iirc, no other skill / equip / buffs could help you to reduce skill's cooldown.

Edit: I'm actually free enough now to help re-modifying the whole skill tree of a few, if not all, 3rd classes. Then I could post the skills on the forum for further discussion. That is, if Skot wants me to, and has serious intention of implementing 3rd. Also if I'm to do that, I need to know whether Skot wants to keep the 3rd class' exclusive features like variable + fixed cast time and the cooldown system on 3rd class skills, or just scrap them and stick to the usual fully variable cast and after cast delay system we are having.

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Lothar Axe on 21/7/2013, 03:39

Oh, then it's ok.
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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by bombxhead on 21/7/2013, 06:25

[ hey skot shouldn't there be a rule against multi-posting? [just noticed the rules topic] ]
[ I never actually played as a 3rd class in vanilla ragnarok actually and barely saw what their skills do, which is why I never suggested anything about it on the 3rd classes sugestion topic . . . . sadly, I can't say anything about it ]

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Lothar Axe on 21/7/2013, 15:49

They are awesome! Some of them that is!
I'm looking forward to Royal Guard and Sorcerer here...

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by bombxhead on 22/7/2013, 13:49

[ they seem quite cool [went through some of their skills] ]
[ except by mouRO and some random private servers, I pretty much stopped playing ragnarok when the reborn thingy came . . . . ]
[ oh yeah, there's the SA thingy that I was interested on. how would that work here? ]

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by khuongduy004 on 22/7/2013, 16:35

Which SA thingy? O_O

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Skotlex on 22/7/2013, 16:46

I have no idea. My intention, for the day I can migrate Mou to rAthena, is to touch as little as possible... it just isn't that nice to mess around with so many skills. I guess I am just very incompatible with the way RO was designed, there was so much I didn't agree with and wanted to change.

But then, you can't call that RO anymore... and the learning curve is huge with the more changes that get accumulated.

Frankly, any changes would actually be out of balance, in case a certain skill/class just ends up being so good you never need anything else. But that would just be bad game design on Gravity's part... (or an accidental side-effect of applying Mou's mechanics to the original skill implementations).

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by khuongduy004 on 22/7/2013, 17:14

The part about a certain class being so good can't be helped, the problem seems to persist in all the games I played. But about skills, that's the reason why I suggested cooldown on skills. It is to force you to use other skills, even if it is just for a few seconds. From my point of view, it would be more balanced if:

1. Skills have lower modifiers, so that default attacks are still worth using (for example, most skills should be around 120% - 200% atk / matk only)

2. Skills have cooldown, at least 2-4s on spam skills, 10-15s on most other average skills, and 30s - 1 min for heavy nuke or skills with OP effects

With the above, you would be using spam skills + default attacks for killing (mostly), then average skills if the situation calls for it, and save those long-ass-cooldown skills for emergency situations. Also, with cooldown, you could make a skill much stronger than other skills, while not having to afraid that it would "end up being so good that you never need anything else".

Still, that's just my opinion, I would like to hear what others have to say about that too.

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by bombxhead on 22/7/2013, 18:10

khuongduy004 wrote:The part about a certain class being so good can't be helped, the problem seems to persist in all the games I played. But about skills, that's the reason why I suggested cooldown on skills. It is to force you to use other skills, even if it is just for a few seconds. From my point of view, it would be more balanced if:

1. Skills have lower modifiers, so that default attacks are still worth using (for example, most skills should be around 120% - 200% atk / matk only)

2. Skills have cooldown, at least 2-4s on spam skills, 10-15s on most other average skills, and 30s - 1 min for heavy nuke or skills with OP effects

With the above, you would be using spam skills + default attacks for killing (mostly), then average skills if the situation calls for it, and save those long-ass-cooldown skills for emergency situations. Also, with cooldown, you could make a skill much stronger than other skills, while not having to afraid that it would "end up being so good that you never need anything else".

Still, that's just my opinion, I would like to hear what others have to say about that too.

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 [ I don't know about reducing so much the damage . . . I mean, if skills 120%~200% ATK only, they would deal as much damage as attacking twice with the skill maxed, meaning that thiefs and gunslinger's double attacks would be sorta like a passive skill that deal as much damage as a active skill that have cooldown, unless you put some sort of cooldown on to double attacks or reduce their damage to 150%~1xx% or something, but that seems stupid for me. also why bother using most of single-target skills if they'll deal the same as two hits anyway? high aspd attackers can ignore it, unless it's aoe or have a good chance of inflicting something. ]
[or so I believe, I might as well be utterly wrong]

[ I don't really play with mages so no comment for MATK based skills. my only character that really uses MATK is that [suicidal] sage of mine ]
[ and no, I don't have any better sugestions. ]
[ [[the SA thingy I meant was the 2nd class for SA]] ]

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by Lothar Axe on 22/7/2013, 19:30

I think the real problem here is how much work implementing 3rds are about, and not how much we will actually have to change them. I mean, who cares about that anymore, the original is a mess.

"1. Skills have lower modifiers, so that default attacks are still worth using (for example, most skills should be around 120% - 200% atk / matk only)"
"2. Skills have cooldown, at least 2-4s on spam skills, 10-15s on most other average skills, and 30s - 1 min for heavy nuke or skills with OP effects"

You forgot about mage classes when making that. They dont use default attacks (except for Sages, but... you know), and so they must spam something fast. I understand how lame it is to spam a skill and dont even use the default attack, but that's what MANA or SOUL POINTS were supposed to limit.

In my opinion Mana and Cooldown have exatly the same purpose, limit how many times in a certain ammount of time you can use a certain skill. Using both makes me puke.
So choose it. It's either mana skills or cooldown skills, dont mix that shit.

Edit1: You can even make HP skills also.

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

Post by bombxhead on 22/7/2013, 22:46

[ wouldn't a 3rd class mage be fine during the cooldown by using the 1st-2nd class skills though? ]
[ I'm not sure how essential the 3rd's skills are but there shouldn't that much of a problem from what I believe ]
[ [[again I can be utterly wrong, as this come from a person who barely knows anything about the 3rd classes]] ]
[ [[yes, I'll be remembering people of that every single post]] ]

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Re: One hundred thousand posts!!

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